My flooring dilemma, what would you do?

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JoeLink

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Rather than focusing on everything I have to do between now and the point where I'm actually ready for flooring, I've been distracted by which flooring I'm going to choose. I'd like to get it finalized, once and for all, so I can move on with the other aspects of this condo renovation!

The condo, my first home, is 2bd/1ba, 714 square feet, on the second floor of a two story complex. The living room, hall, and bedrooms were carpeted, which I've removed and disposed of to get a jump on minimizing the cigarette odor. The kitchen has hardwoods, which will be replaced. The current sub-floor is particleboard. I don't plan on every selling the place, though it'll likely be a rental in 5-6 years.

I want to have the same wood or wood-look flooring throughout, minus the bathroom. The look I'm going for is a smooth Brazilian Cherry (or Brazilian Cherry look) I must have looked at, decided on, then circled back on each type of flooring there is! I believe I've finally narrowed it down to two options, laminate or real hardwood. I don't like the look or feel of LVT. Engineered hardwood and bamboo seem to cost very close to the real thing, can't be refinished the same (a couple times or not at all), and don't have the upscale prestige of the solid wood. If I'm going to make the investment, I want to do it right, otherwise there's no reason for spending the extra money.

My main hang-up, of course, is the kitchen and potential damage. I've lived in three homes with hardwoods in the kitchen, and three relatives have had laminate in their kitchens for a few years now. None of them have had an issue, nor have I seen any issues in houses or rentals I've visited. I believe the majority were real hardwoods, it seems kitchen installs are fairly common in the Northwest. Again, just my experiences, this is why I'm asking you guys :)

My dilemma, in a sentence:

I'd like to go with real, solid hardwood floors, but I'm not sure if it would be worth the cost, since I've heard they're just as susceptible to water damage as laminate.

The pro's of hardwoods are numerous: I really like the warmth, look, and feel of a solid hardwood floor. Hardwood floors can be refinished many times (you don't see other 100 year old residential floors still in use today). Hardwood floors increase value and add upscale finish. The only negative is the cost, and that's what has me thinking about laminate. If it's true that they're just as susceptible to water damage, I think laminate is the way to go. Most people buy a few extra boxes, in the event they need to replaced damaged pieces. If I did go with laminate I could install it myself, and float it over the existing particle board. If I go with hardwood I'll have to lay a new subfloor (materials, I can do this myself), and hire a company for the actual flooring install. An upside is that it would likely have a warranty, right? Likely not against water damage, but other things?

I know you can't seal laminate, and I've read all kinds of mixed things about hardwoods. Some say you can seal them and it'll make them more resistant to water and UV fading. Some say you can't seal them, because they wouldn't be able to expand and contract. Which is it?

I believe I could install a decent laminate myself for around $3.50/sq ft, on the high end. This would total $2450.

I haven't shopped around for hardwoods, but earlier I called a reputable flooring company for a very rough, sight unseen, sq foot quote, to see if I could possibly afford it. I don't have a bunch of money, but I plan on living here for a long time, and I believe hardwood floors would be an investment. They quoted me $2.25 for the nail down installation (providing I lay and prep the plywood or OSB subfloor), and around $5.99 sq ft for the Brazilian Cherry flooring. This would total $5768, not including the materials for the new subfloor.

One last question about subfloors, do they all require two 'layers'? I'm guessing the answer will be yes, but if I have 3/4"-1" plywood under the particleboard (attached to the joists), do I still need to lay another sheet of subfloor, or can the hardwood be laid directly on that?

I'd really appreciate any and all input you guys could provide me.

Examples of the look I'd like:

6ec988a9fcddd6645059d7aa637c73da.jpg


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Photos of my condo:

http://imgur.com/a/uLfhO
 
Most condos won't allow all wood because of the noise. That would be the first thing to find out.
 
Sorry, should have mentioned that.

I currently have solid hardwoods in the kitchen.

This is from the R&R:

iii. All Wood or Hard flooring material must be installed with sound dampening material to reduce sound transfer to the unit below.
 
Usually gets down to kids and the dog are going to ruin it. Not bad if you like the rustic look.
 
Usually gets down to kids and the dog are going to ruin it. Not bad if you like the rustic look.

I don't have kids nor pets, and if the kid situation changed in a year or two I'd rent it and find somewhere else. As for renting it to people with children, I'm trying to build it out in a way that will lend itself more to professional types, such as myself, who need a two bedroom to use one as a home office.

24" in on center joists.?? That's not good.

Yeah, that worries me. Anything I can do about it? Any good way to check the joist spacing in the living room, kitchen, and bedrooms without pulling the subfloor? I'm crossing my fingers it's just an abnormality in the bathroom.

I guess worst case, I could go with 7/8" OSB? http://www.techsupport.weyerhaeuser...Hardwood-Floor-Installation-Over-24-o-c-Joist
 
Check the distance between the rows of nails in the other rooms, they should be about 16". Let's see what Sam has to say about it.
 
If it's all about the numbers, then think about this: the nat. wood is about twice the cost, but if it will last twice as long... (I don't know the answer, and a lot depends on how it is used).
Dogs and kids are an equal risk on either floor. They don't alter their practices based on the flooring. Nat wood can be sanded if the dog scratches it, but laminate...hmm.
A poly finish is pretty typical on a nat. wood floor - shouldn't be any expansion or shrinking issues.
Is it an open floor plan that would require the same floor throughout? There are ways around that if you want the kitchen to be different / spill resistant.
 
Check the distance between the rows of nails in the other rooms, they should be about 16". Let's see what Sam has to say about it.

The distance between the rows of nails in the particleboard is 16", but those rows are running the opposite direction of the joists I uncovered in the bathroom, so I'm pretty sure it's just nailed into the plywood subfloor.

If it's all about the numbers, then think about this: the nat. wood is about twice the cost, but if it will last twice as long... (I don't know the answer, and a lot depends on how it is used).
Dogs and kids are an equal risk on either floor. They don't alter their practices based on the flooring. Nat wood can be sanded if the dog scratches it, but laminate...hmm.
A poly finish is pretty typical on a nat. wood floor - shouldn't be any expansion or shrinking issues.
Is it an open floor plan that would require the same floor throughout? There are ways around that if you want the kitchen to be different / spill resistant.

That's how I'm looking at it. If I'm not planning on selling the place, I think it'd be a good investment for the long term. Yes, it's twice as much, but I'll enjoy it and hopefully it'll last. That's good to hear about the poly seal, will that help protect it against moisture?

As for the kids and pets, it should be a non-issue. I can't imagine anyone with a child renting a place without a bathtub. My thought is that if I build this with nicer features and amenities, I should be able to charge more than someone with a child or children would be willing to pay for the size.

I'm very lucky I managed to buy this place when I did; since April the market here has absolutely exploded. To ensure the unit would always be in demand as a rental, I wanted something with a high WalkScore, of which this has an 83. You wouldn't need to own a car, everything is within a few blocks, yet it's on a quiet sidestreet. I shouldn't have any problem finding someone to rent it when I'm ready to move out :banana:

Quoted from above:

I don't have kids nor pets, and if the kid situation changed in a year or two I'd rent it and find somewhere else. As for renting it to people with children, I'm trying to build it out in a way that will lend itself more to professional types, such as myself, who need a two bedroom to use one as a home office.
 
I'm sure it is :)

http://www.walkscore.com

After living in a couple places where almost anything I wanted (groceries, restaraunts, bars, hardware store, etc) was a 10 minute walk, the only alternative for me now is 10+ acres with a large shop :D
 
Today I verified, I have 1/2" particle board on 3/4" plywood on joists sitting 24" apart. Sorry about the long-winded post!

I've been thinking about it over and over again, and I'm now thinking engineered hardwood might be my best bet, then solid hardwood, then laminate. Honestly though, I think I'm going to opt for one of the two real woods.

As I mentioned, water damage is my biggest concern, since this will be installed in the kitchen. From what I've read, it seems that engineered hardwood is much more water resistant than solid hardwood. Is this correct? If so, I guess that's my best option...

For the flooring prep and installation, I'm a believer in the old adage "Your final result is only as good as your prep work". I want to make sure my subfloor is ready to quietly support a long relationship with my finish flooring. I'll be doing all the subfloor work myself. I'm not sure if I'll install the hardwood floor or if I'll have it installed, but I'm leaning toward the latter for warranty purposes. As I mentioned above, I have 1/2" particle board, on 3/4" plywood, on joists sitting 24" apart. I've read that, with the wide joist spacing, for solid hardwood floors, it's recommended I lay another sheet of plywood or OSB to bring the total subfloor thickness to 1"+, correct?

When it comes to the installation, what are the big differences in nail down, glue down, and floating, when it comes to potential issues longevity, and performance of the flooring? Only the engineered hardwood can/should be floated, right? How can I quantify whether it'd be worth the substantial expense of pulling the particle board and laying down another sheet of subflooring for a nail down installation? I don't hear of glue down installations much, is that something I should be considering for my installation, or should I choose between nail down and floating?

It appears the cost for engineered or solid is about the same. If floating an engineered floor is anything like installing laminate, I'm pretty sure I could do it myself. Cost for a nail down installation is around $2.25/sq ft, or $1575, plus the cost of laying 700 sq ft of additional subfloor.

Another question! My bottom cabinets are sitting on the current hardwood in the kitchen, so I assume I have to remove them for the install? Any chance of not cracking my tile countertops?
 
A couple thoughts.
I sent you to the bathroom to check floor joist and is that where you got this info?
There are times that floor joists change direction, to land on bearing walls or to allow for plumbing.
It is seldom that you will find that the joists are 24" o c.
I would talk to other people in the complex to see if they have found the same things as you are finding.
Find a chunk of particle board that you could pull up to prove floor joist configuration.
 
I made a very rough illustration of the building any my condo layout. The unit is two stories, with mine on top. This is absolutely not to scale :)

The rooms numbered 4 and 5 are the kitchen and living room, respectively. 1 is the bedroom, 2 is the office, and 3 is the bathroom. I'm not knowledgeable about construction whatsoever, but I can't imagine them running joists the length of the building. The first board I pulled up was between the office and the bathroom (numbers 2 and 3), with the joists running from the front to the back of the condo.

Today I pulled a thin (1 ft wide) piece of particle board off the subfloor in the office (number 2). There was a white dust between the layers, and I didn't see any nails holding the plywood to the joists. I measured 24" from where the two pieces of the plywood subfloor met, got down close, and found a nail holding the subfloor down. The I measured 24" from that nail, and again I found a nail holding the subfloor down. I'm 98% sure the joists run from the front of the building to the back of the building, but I can't be 100% without pulling more plywood and having a look.

condo.png
 
That is the proof I was looking for, not the greatest news but Job well done.
If the older hardwood floor has stood up in the kitchen I think you should be able to hard wood thru out.
For the bathroom, there is a product that looks like tile but is actually more like a vinyl tile with some special grout, that might stand up better to a flexable floor.
You do want to make sure the kitchen floor hasn't been glued down before you start ripping and tearing.
a Toe Kick Saw will allow you to cut the old floor under the cabinets so you do not have to remove the cupboards
http://www6.homedepot.com/tool-truck-rental/Kick_Toe_Saw/775-647018/
 

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