Help Sizing A Header

[Moose71275]

I'm removing a load bearing wall in my home and need to install a header. The span is 9' 6". The second floor and unfinished attic would sit on top of it. I am fairly certain I could use double 2x12's but the problem is with the low ceilings already I can't really afford to loose the head room. I was wondering what size LVL could be used, 9 1/4 would work but I'm not certain if this would be sufficient to hold the load. I think the only other option would be steel. Can anyone provide what dimensions I would need for an LVL and then also for steel? Are there any other options other than these? Thanks in advance.

 

[bud16415]

First off welcome to the forum.

How do you know it is a load bearing wall? Is there a basement / crawl space below? do you have the ceiling opened up yet? Any chance of getting a photo of what’s up there? Are the floor joists above ending on the wall? Is there a header now at the smaller opening and also one at the entry opening?

I’m not a pro but some will be along soon, and I suspect they will ask the same. Are you going to put a post at the end of the yellow line or span across to the steps?

As to sizing most of the pros will advise you get a eng. to sign off on the header. If you are going to wing it I’m sure you will get some advice. You can also go wider with the beam if you can’t go taller.

 

[Snoonyb]

Assuming that the 2nd floor stacks directly above the 1st, have you opened the ceiling or wall, that appears to have plumbing in it?

 

[Moose71275]

Yes there is a basement which I can tell from there that it is a load bearing wall. I already have it opened up, the floor joist span left to right above the family room, so from the side the garage is on towards the kitchen. These joists do not end at the wall, they go over the wall about 2 feet and then they switch direction. So the joists over the kitchen run front to back. Yes I plan on putting a post where the yellow line ends so it wont span all the way to the steps. This is actually where I have already moved the plumbing, the water lines now run up this post and then back over. Here is a photo of the blueprints to give more detail.

 

[nealtw]

Do you have the kitchen ceiling open to see the joists?
Is the roof structure engineered trusses?

 

[bud16415]

Here is a beam calculator and if you know your numbers you can figure it out. they have a good example to follow. You could see how many 2x10 it will take to carry the load as you say you have 9.25” to work with. The LVL makers should have numbers for their product as well. pretty much the header will be taking the average floor load of the bed room and the two baths above plus whatever load is above that that rests on the beam. (edit) Well half the load

http://www.timbertoolbox.com/

 

[nealtw]

Here is a beam calculator and if you know your numbers you can figure it out. they have a good example to follow. You could see how many 2x10 it will take to carry the load as you say you have 9.25” to work with. The LVL makers should have numbers for their product as well. pretty much the header will be taking the average floor load of the bed room and the two baths above plus whatever load is above that that rests on the beam. (edit) Well half the load

http://www.timbertoolbox.com/

To early for that Bud, Live and dead load of the floor above.
Live and dead load of roof if any.

Studs and solid blocking have to be installed in the basement and depending on the load the footing size may come into question.

A normal footing might be 8x16 and for a point load like this that footing would be expanded to 10 x24x24 or 10x36x36 depending on the load and the soil conditions.

 

[Moose71275]

Do you have the kitchen ceiling open to see the joists?
Is the roof structure engineered trusses?

I do not have the kitchen ceiling open other than being able to see up and in from the opening where the wall was, and yes the roof is engineered trusses.

 

[nealtw]

For A Floor Which Also Supports A Ceiling Below...

All of the above = 10.3 psf
Subtract the insulation = -1.8 psf
Add 5/8" gypsum board = +2.8 psf
Lights/Misc. = 1.0 psf
Total Dead Loads = 10.3 - 1.8 + 2.8 + 1.0 = 12.3 psf
Live Load = 40 psf for residential occupancie

Borrowed from

http://www.mcvicker.com/resguide/page012.htm

 

[nealtw]

To figure the square footage is the bedroom or the portion that will be supported by the beam and load for that will be half but he area of the bathroom will be all of that load.
so if the beam will be (9' x 10' x 55 lbs/2) + (9' x 3' x 55 lbs)
I think the first joist in the kitchen will be on the other side of the stairs

 

[bud16415]

To early for that Bud, Live and dead load of the floor above.
Live and dead load of roof if any.

Studs and solid blocking have to be installed in the basement and depending on the load the footing size may come into question.

A normal footing might be 8x16 and for a point load like this that footing would be expanded to 10 x24x24 or 10x36x36 depending on the load and the soil conditions.

Of course what ever load ends up on the post has to go all the way to a footing. The reason I asked if there was a basement. When I was rough figuring I was just going 100# per sq ft / 2 + what ever of the bathrooms is cantilevered over the wall now.

He has room for 2x10’s pick a deflection that you can live with and will pass. If you use 100# loading you then have a 2X safety factor. Half the load goes on the outside wall half on the beam.

 

[nealtw]

Of course what ever load ends up on the post has to go all the way to a footing. The reason I asked if there was a basement. When I was rough figuring I was just going 100# per sq ft / 2 + what ever of the bathrooms is cantilevered over the wall now.

He has room for 2x10’s pick a deflection that you can live with and will pass. If you use 100# loading you then have a 2X safety factor. Half the load goes on the outside wall half on the beam.

On the outside wall, solid blocking and studs from the subfloor to the foundation, the foundation will have some height and the load spreads sideways to the footing there would not be a problem.
It is the footing at the other end I would be concerned about.
I agree two LVLs are cheaper than an engineer but the footing is a guessing game but would likely be fine.

 

[nealtw]

We had one engineer that had us open the wall down stairs and install a 3 ft header centered on the load, then the load was split in 2 with 2 points 3 ft apart
With solid blocking to the subfloor

 

[bud16415]

We had one engineer that had us open the wall down stairs and install a 3 ft header centered on the load, then the load was split in 2 with 2 points 3 ft apart
With solid blocking to the subfloor

That’s ok if the footing goes past the post above and then you spread the load in the basement out over more footing. Would save digging up the basement. If the footing ends though at the post above running a beam back wouldn’t do anything as the load is coming straight down the one post that’s below the post above. The other one wont carry any load or very little.

 

[nealtw]

That’s ok if the footing goes past the post above and then you spread the load in the basement out over more footing. Would save digging up the basement. If the footing ends though at the post above running a beam back wouldn’t do anything as the load is coming straight down the one post that’s below the post above. The other one wont carry any load or very little.

The curb would stop at the opening in the basement but the footing should continue thru.
That appears to be a box out for furnace vent at the end of the beam, I would expect the wall to continue the required 18"

 

[Moose71275]

The curb would stop at the opening in the basement but the footing should continue thru.
That appears to be a box out for furnace vent at the end of the beam, I would expect the wall to continue the required 18"

There currently is a post in the basement, it's pretty much at the top of the stairs in line with this wall. The box out for the furnace vent is actually empty other than a laundry schute and now the plumbing that I have moved to that space that was in the wall.

 

[nealtw]

There currently is a post in the basement, it's pretty much at the top of the stairs in line with this wall. The box out for the furnace vent is actually empty other than a laundry schute and now the plumbing that I have moved to that space that was in the wall.

So, there is a wall below your yellow line, does it extend past the end of your yellow line by 18" or more?

 

[nealtw]

There currently is a post in the basement, it's pretty much at the top of the stairs in line with this wall. The box out for the furnace vent is actually empty other than a laundry schute and now the plumbing that I have moved to that space that was in the wall.

So, there is a wall below your yellow line, does it extend past the end of your yellow line by 18" or more?
Do the joists over the basement run the same as the joists above?

 

[Moose71275]

So in the basement there are 4 2x10s together under this wall (they are offset on the family room side about 6 inches ) you can see in the one picture the holes where the pipes used to be, that's where the wall above is. The 4 2x10s run from the back of the house to the middle where they are supported by a steel I beam then another set of 2x10s run from the I beam to the front of the house. Where they meet at the I beam is supported by a post which you can see in the other picture. There is no wall in the basement. The joists in the basement run front to back all of which rest on the steel I beam. The joists in the ceiling of the family room run from side to side perpendicular to the ones in the basement. Then the ones over the kitchen run parallel to the ones in the basement. I think you can see those in the blueprint picture I posted earlier.

 

[Moose71275]

Second picture