Multiple Lights Stop Working

[Snoonyb]

The red wire is going to the light fixture. And a 6 inch section of black wire is tied in with the 4 white wires at the wire nut, and that black wire then connects to the light fixture. What should be my next course of action?

The red and black conductors are a switch leg.

They used "crimp-sleeves" to bond the bare copper conductors, (grnd). during that era.

 

[nealtw]

The red and black conductors are a switch leg.

They used "crimp-sleeves" to bond the bare copper conductors, (grnd). during that era.

No they are not He has a three wire from the breaker box

 

[Snoonyb]

Which you "assumed" was 240V;"You could have 2 breakers feeding, they do that to save wire, they will be feeding one cable with 2 hot wires, black and red, and the breakers should be tied together, so when one kicks off the other goes with it."

 

[nealtw]

Which you "assumed" was 240V;"You could have 2 breakers feeding, they do that to save wire, they will be feeding one cable with 2 hot wires, black and red, and the breakers should be tied together, so when one kicks off the other goes with it."

I assume lot's of stuff in order to get all the answers before making suggestions.

 

[eharvey650]

Your description of how the wires are sounds wrong.

Do you have power at the light box now?

It's exactly as I described. The four wire conduit has a red, black, white and bare copper wire. The other three conduits have only a black, white and copper wires. All four blacks are tied together. All four whites are tied together. The four bare copper wires are loosely twisted together (seems very loosely). The red strand of wire from the four wire conduit is connected to the back side of the ceiling light wire. And from the four white wires joined by wire nut, a short section of black wire was added at the nut and it connects to a wire from the back side of the ceiling light. I don't know if that's wired properly or not, but it worked for 19 years. Can someone explain to me how to properly test this box and all its wires?

 

[nealtw]

With the breakers turned on you should have 120 volts between black and white and 120 volts between red and white.

If you are sure that your wiring is as said, this is not the first box, confirm that there is a red wire to one of the breakers.
Look in the switch box for a red wire.

 

[afjes_2016]

While using a 3 wire cable (romex) with a ground is used sometimes to save wire it is mainly used for what they called a MWBC (multi wire branch circuit). Yes, by code you must have a tie between the two breakers if using two individual breakers or you may use a two pole breaker. One conductor (wire) such as red would go to one breaker (or pole of a two pole), the black to another, the neutral white wire to the neutral bar and the ground of course to the ground bar.

However, first let us not assume because he sees a red wire in the ceiling fixture of the bathroom that he has a multi wire branch circuit. They are usually used in switched receptacles or alternating receptacles from one to the next. It is possible (as I have installed many of these) that if he has a fan within the light fixture that the fixture was wired with a 3 wire romex so that one conductor would energize the light and one the fan independently as wanted. If he has two separate switches that normally run this light fixture as in one for the fan and one for light this may be the case.

eharvey650: Your use of terminology my be confusing some of us which is fine. Now that you have stated your knowledge level we know a little better how to word our answers. You use the term "conduit". Without me having to re-read all your responses to be specific lets start with the correct termonology first. This will help. What do you mean by conduit? Are the wires (individual conductors) within a "pipe" we will call it now whether it be metal or plastic PVC, metal sleeve? A Romex is a set of conductors within a sheath outter layer and within are individual conductors each having its own insulation (except for ground most times). Let's not confuse cables with wires with conduit etc. You can call a romex a cable, the conductors inside are just that conductors or wires. Some cities and towns require conduit to be used in residential homes so it is not uncommon but not in many places. I think Chicago is one of them. However if it is conduit keep in mind that the electrician wiring did not have to use a specific color conductor when running the wires within the conduit where as if it is a manufactured romex cable the colors are normally standard. First, is it a conduit or Romex.

Here is said
"The red wire is going to the light fixture. And a 6 inch section of black wire is tied in with the 4 white wires at the wire nut, and that black wire then connects to the light fixture. "

It seems that they used black wire as a jumper from the neutral (white wires) to the light which should be connected to the white wire of the light fixture. They should have use white. The red wire going to the fixture I would assume is connected to the black wire of the light fixture. How many wires (conductors) are coming from the light fixture itself?

And does the light fixture have a fan. If so is there a separate switch you use to turn on the fan only?

 

[eharvey650]

With the breakers turned on you should have 120 volts between black and white and 120 volts between red and white.

If you are sure that your wiring is as said, this is not the first box, confirm that there is a red wire to one of the breakers.
Look in the switch box for a red wire.

I have only one breaker that has a red wire coming from it screw. It's a 30 amp connected to another 30 amp (labeled 9 -11) by on/off handle. According to my records, the dryer outlet is on that breaker.

 

[eharvey650]

I might add that the dryer works just fine. Been using it throughout this ordeal with the upstairs lights.

 

[nealtw]

Okay then we are back to the beginning.
So only one of these breaker is for this circuit.
It would look like power is coming from the switch box to the light box and feeds the other 3 blacks, and the red is only the switch as was suggested earlier.
So how many cables are in the switch box. and is there a red one there.

Now we do not know which is the first box, we might know the switch comes before a bunch of other stuff.

 

[nealtw]

Have you had a problem with critters in the attic or walls?

 

[Snoonyb]

See post #13.

 

[nealtw]

See post #13.

You might be right about the switch leg but he does not have power at the light box,,, I think.

 

[Snoonyb]

Correct, except he had previously stated a presence of voltage with the proximity tester, which he may have been reading that from the red conductor, and until he uncouples the conductors mentioned in post #13 and uses his VOM to find the hot, "TWISTS" the conductors back together, we are pretty much at a standstill.

 

[afjes_2016]

One question. Do yo have power at the light box at any of the wires? If not, then your problem is not the light box.

 

[nealtw]

Correct, except he had previously stated a presence of voltage with the proximity tester, which he may have been reading that from the red conductor, and until he uncouples the conductors mentioned in post #13 and uses his VOM to find the hot, "TWISTS" the conductors back together, we are pretty much at a standstill.

He said, it seams it is coming in there, but he didn't say he had power there.
I took that to mean there were lot's of wires there.

 

[Snoonyb]

I presumed he had continued with the proximity tester, for him to conclude that it appeared to be the entrance point for distribution, the next stop after the breaker.

As in a point of distribution, where "stuffed", as opposed to "twisted" conductors in a wirenut have a higher probability of becoming loose and displaying the failure he's experiencing.

 

[afjes_2016]

I feel unless he confirms one way or the other that he does have power in the light box fixture we are just beating a dead horse at this point.

Proximity testers are really only good to let me know for sure there is no power in a device box etc if power exists after I shut off a breaker to trouble shoot or do other work. I always use my meter after that.

eharvey650 do you have some type of a meter to use other than a proximity tester?

 

[Snoonyb]

From post #15;"I rechecked all the breakers and they all are reading between 122.7 to 123.3 volts at the box."

 

[nealtw]

I presumed he had continued with the proximity tester, for him to conclude that it appeared to be the entrance point for distribution, the next stop after the breaker.

As in a point of distribution, where "stuffed", as opposed to "twisted" conductors in a wirenut have a higher probability of becoming loose and displaying the failure he's experiencing.

See the last line in post 25