Redo small deck roof to Support Walk-on and Panels

[Snoonyb]

I would go on both side of each rafter, just to get more nails in there. But we don't know the condition of the rafter tails so?

So, given that the fascia was probably fastened with 3, or at least 2-16D to the rafter, would it be prudent to add an additional 12 fasteners, which would bring the total to at least 15 fasteners in the end two inches of a rafter tail, the condition of which is unknown.

Keeping in mind that he's attempting to create a walkable surface to mount the solar panels, he describes as quite heavy, will the rafter tails full of nails hold the weight.

He's likely to quadruple the load.

In order to create this walkable surface, he is going to remove the metal, and that leaves the rafters, facia and blocking between a truly walkable surface, and a cheap marginally safe, if and maybe surface.

So why not a ledger lagged to the dwelling and a few new rafters, for a safe walkable surface.

 

[nealtw]

So, given that the fascia was probably fastened with 3, or at least 2-16D to the rafter, would it be prudent to add an additional 12 fasteners, which would bring the total to at least 15 fasteners in the end two inches of a rafter tail, the condition of which is unknown.

Keeping in mind that he's attempting to create a walkable surface to mount the solar panels, he describes as quite heavy, will the rafter tails full of nails hold the weight.

He's likely to quadruple the load.

In order to create this walkable surface, he is going to remove the metal, and that leaves the rafters, facia and blocking between a truly walkable surface, and a cheap marginally safe, if and maybe surface.

So why not a ledger lagged to the dwelling and a few new rafters, for a safe walkable surface.

Those hangers only have two nails and yes the condition of the wood will have to be judged.
Other than that, I agree completely.
If it were mine I would ledger to the wall or go up and sit on the wall cut the posts and add a beam, make the new joists longer to match the house and then when repairs have to be made to the deck, new posts and bearing could be added outboard of the old deck.

 

[Snoonyb]

Those hangers only have two nails and yes the condition of the wood will have to be judged.
Other than that, I agree completely.
If it were mine I would ledger to the wall or go up and sit on the wall cut the posts and add a beam, make the new joists longer to match the house and then when repairs have to be made to the deck, new posts and bearing could be added outboard of the old deck.

I've had to many inspectors say,"that's a hole, put a nail in it."

I know I wouldn't want to be the author of a catastrophe of well meant intentions.

 

[tk3000]

What is the frequency of the connector in the photo, in msg. #19.

There are two metal brackets on each end of the rafters, thus a total of 4 metal brackets per rafter connecting both sides of each end of the rafters: two connecting each at the ledger board which is connected to fascia board at the house, and two connected to the 2x4 or 2x6 hanging on the 4x4 posts.

But the brackets at the ledger end seem to provide better support, they seem to be proper rafter hangers.

 

[tk3000]

The posts in the ground will show rot right at ground level first, if it is good there it might be trusted somewhat, but with out knowing what it is for sure, we just don't know other than what you know about the load it has been carrying.

I gave you earlier how to insure the fascia doesn't fall off at the house end.
You could just add another 2x6 across the outside making a beam out of that end and thru bolt them to the post And add a couple 2x4s to the post to better support the beam.
That is the quick cheap and easy. I would consider that the new roof will be shorter and then will drop more water near the posts

BUT If you intend to fix this in a year or two there are things you could do so that you don't have tear it down when that time comes.
There may be a couple approaches to that and still they would not be that big of a deal.

If they have built the other roof like this and I suggest they have, then there is no venting in that area and many will tell you that a closed system with rubber on top does not need venting but the problem is at the bottom of the house roof where it gets very close the to original outside wall and ice damming can occur there and leaks will show up in the main house.

Yeah, I try to get some testing done at the posts to see if the bottom part is bad. Hopefully it is not.

So, I will add extra support at both ends (ledger board, there is also a fascia board on the eave to which the ledger board is attached to) in the for m of beams: 2x4 cedar at the posts ends and 2x6 cedar at the ledger board end. I was wondering if cutting notches on the on the lumber to accommodate the rafters would be a good idea?

Maybe a plate at the post end of the rafters to allow for the installation of a small gutter to divert the water from the ground below?

I went to the attic which is full of insulation making it difficult to see anything. I took two shots on the end of the roof descending towards the small deck:

I added a very small amount of vented soffit boards the other roof a long time ago. But I was also concerned about the incoming cold air

thanks!

 

[nealtw]

Your only concern about cool air should be, do I get enough in there.
In the photo we see some water staining but that doesn't mean there is a problem as it could be old and resolved.
I was hoping to see some proof that, that roof was not built the same way the deck roof was.
The water stain could be caused by ice damming caused by poor structure.

I only question this because I want you to know there could be a problem there and in a few years you may be back asking how to restructure this roof.

So with that said I would push you to take time to at least structure this roof in a way both roofs can be adjusted at the same time later with out adding a lot of money or time. It is just easier to build in a plan.

 

[tk3000]

Your only concern about cool air should be, do I get enough in there.
In the photo we see some water staining but that doesn't mean there is a problem as it could be old and resolved.
I was hoping to see some proof that, that roof was not built the same way the deck roof was.
The water stain could be caused by ice damming caused by poor structure.

I only question this because I want you to know there could be a problem there and in a few years you may be back asking how to restructure this roof.

So with that said I would push you to take time to at least structure this roof in a way both roofs can be adjusted at the same time later with out adding a lot of money or time. It is just easier to build in a plan.

Yeah, that is a good point. The shingle roof for this house is almost brand new: it was installed in 2010, and overall it looks really good from the outset. Some of the sheathing seems to have been renewed in 2010 as well, but not all of it. Besides I don't see any sign of mold or water damage there, and it does not feel damp or drench at all. But I will take a closer look. Not only that, I will also install permanent humidity sensor there to keep monitoring it all the time. The following sensors (they will be connected to a computer device which will sample all the time):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/231594180289?rmvSB=true


Anyhow, I will take a closer look tomorrow, but having to swim through all these loose insulation and not being able to turn my shoulder around due to little clearance is a pain (and some ask me why I haven't finished wiring this house yet...)

Besides I also want to maybe add some active form of ventilation to mitigate this issue. I found this one at amazon:

Lomanco BIB-12 MILL Whirlybird Turbine Ventilator

Maybe some form of active ventilation and exhaust (electrical fan)? I remember during the summer when I went to the attic to do something, and it was so hot there that I had to leave right away (if it was 80F outside, it probably was 100F, but I am just guessing here)

Yep, I will follow your recommendation and take the time to structure the roof and hopefully get it to a good point. But at this moment there is nothing catastrophic happening (leaks and whatnot). Wouldn't reinforce the small deck roof a good starting point? I want the deck roof to be completely independent from the house roof and simlpy be connected to it by means of a ledger board to support the deck roof (and the deck is opened, so vent. should not be an issue there)

Some extra pics of this part of the attic:

(note also that it may seem more darker at the end because the flash of the camera phone only goes so far)


thks!

 

[nealtw]

What you are missing, at least we are not seeing is air chutes that bring air from the soffet area so it can run out the box vents or what have you near the ridge.

 

[nealtw]

Don't know why the link won't work, do a google search solarpowerworldonline.com...shingle-roofs/
there is lots of info there.

I see in an earlier post you said you had assumed everything was built properly, I assume the opposite. Even if we have someones blueprints, inspection sheets and maybe engineers report, we find things that are wrong.

Getting back to your deck. There are things we know and things we don't know.
Things we know.
1. Attachment to the house roof, not the best for the added weight.
2. attachment to the post, ridiculous at best.
3. Strength of rim joist between post, not even close.
Things we don't know.
1.The age and condition of the deck and posts.
2. the quality and depth of the footings if any.

Things I wonder about when looking at a job like this.
1.You answered the first question already, someday you might rebuilt it
2. If we finish it as is, will be able to rebuild it later with out taking it down, NO
3. If the deck, posts, footings do not hold up over time will any of it be easy to fix. NO
4. Can we change the NOs to YESs for a couple hundred dollars YES.

 

[tk3000]

What you are missing, at least we are not seeing is air chutes that bring air from the soffet area so it can run out the box vents or what have you near the ridge.

Ok, I see what you mean. The only way to check out is up in the attic by going to the edge of the roof and shoveling some of the insulation away or maybe from outside by opening the soffits (I guess). I will take the first approach and try to check for the air chutes in the attic, and will report soon.

On the positive side, the few times I was there I could not find any sign of trapped moisture, mildew, mold stain, or anything; and it seems very dry overall. But I have to look closer.

But I was wondering... Are the air chutes at the soffits required by code? I would imagine that the air chutes are used to avoid having all the loose insulation blocking the vent path moving towards the roof sheathing. In case there none in this roof, could I mitigate the circulation issue by other means?


thks!

 

[nealtw]

Usually, you don't have enough insulation over the wall and the chutes give you air flow while allowing you to fill the rest of the space.
All this is just stuff to consider when designing your deck roof.

 

[tk3000]

Don't know why the link won't work, do a google search solarpowerworldonline.com...shingle-roofs/
there is lots of info there.

I see in an earlier post you said you had assumed everything was built properly, I assume the opposite. Even if we have someones blueprints, inspection sheets and maybe engineers report, we find things that are wrong.

Getting back to your deck. There are things we know and things we don't know.
Things we know.
1. Attachment to the house roof, not the best for the added weight.
2. attachment to the post, ridiculous at best.
3. Strength of rim joist between post, not even close.
Things we don't know.
1.The age and condition of the deck and posts.
2. the quality and depth of the footings if any.

Things I wonder about when looking at a job like this.
1.You answered the first question already, someday you might rebuilt it
2. If we finish it as is, will be able to rebuild it later with out taking it down, NO
3. If the deck, posts, footings do not hold up over time will any of it be easy to fix. NO
4. Can we change the NOs to YESs for a couple hundred dollars YES.

Yeah, you are right, I should assume nothing. Besides, I have seen so many brand new houses built to supposed higher standards of material and workmanship suffer from many maladies from the onset. For instance, my sister bought a very nice and almost new (built in 2005) apartment/condo in Chicago,IL, and whenever there is a rain water leaks and drips down from wood window jambs and frame inside the house (and that is not only one window, but almost all of them).

Regarding the issues ffacing the small deck roof, I will follow you lead and list:
1) Ledger Board attaching to house fascia board needs to be reinforced? You said that the " So we will want to remove the soffet install" you mean the plastic/pvc white soffit under the eave. Many small patio roofs are attached to a house via a ledger board affixed to the fascia board.

2) I got the point that the attachment to the post are a disgrace. It uses simpson L30 angle bracket to connect the rafters to a 2x6 connected to the posts; shouldn't it use a rafter hanger instead? Wouldn't a 2x4 with notches to seat the rafters in connected to the posts offer more support. Difficult to use diagonal braces due to clearance issue

I looked under the deck and while I can not be sure there is sign of rotting. I assume that the underground portion of the posts are surrounded by concrete, but I will dig a little to try to check any further.

I am all ears, and up to the task of spending a couple of 100s to properly address it (assuming the posts are ok, etc).

thks

 

[tk3000]

On the subject of the mounting system for solar panels on a shingle roof,
understandably, I am concerned about drilling dozens of holes through the shingles and inside the sheathing now and in the long run. Most solutions include a set brackets for each panel or a rail system (for not so small arrays). I do not trust the sealant alone, and wish to use some flashing material; like the following:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/380875027927

The problem is that the above item is an over expensive contraption. After all, aluminum flashing foil is relatively cheap and will help divert any water from running down there. Even though I have used aluminum welding many years ago (aluminum welding rods + propane) on something I was doing in a motorcycle I would need a perfect smooth surface in this scenario, so the welding would not be an option. So, I was looking for a viable simple solution instead of this overexpesive simple contraption.

 

[nealtw]

Let's be clear, I don't know enough about mounting the panels to do much more than comment.

 

[nealtw]

So to be clear my plan for the deck will use the old posts but every think above that will be replace.
It will have a ledger bolted to the house wall below the level of the fascia, a double 2x10 full length beam will sit on top of the posts and the new joists will be long enough to reach out to match the other roof.
We can build in a 2" slope to the outside.

Advantages.
Any leaks will only effect the deck roof, not causing any problems with house roof.
Ease of holding it up if or when the deck need repairs or replacement.
Easy to add a new slope to both roofs if and when you want to improve the structure.
Structure against the house will be strong enough to take the weight going on the roof.

If you agree with this we will need some measurement before you do anything.

 

[tk3000]

So to be clear my plan for the deck will use the old posts but every think above that will be replace.
It will have a ledger bolted to the house wall below the level of the fascia, a double 2x10 full length beam will sit on top of the posts and the new joists will be long enough to reach out to match the other roof.
We can build in a 2" slope to the outside.

Advantages.
Any leaks will only effect the deck roof, not causing any problems with house roof.
Ease of holding it up if or when the deck need repairs or replacement.
Easy to add a new slope to both roofs if and when you want to improve the structure.
Structure against the house will be strong enough to take the weight going on the roof.

If you agree with this we will need some measurement before you do anything.

Interesting plan, I like it. But measurements and dimensions are decisive in this situation, and the height of the deck is rather low so if the ledger board was to be bolted to the house (concrete wall) the roof deck vertical clearance would be extremely low. Couldn't a large slope and extra flashing isolate mostly any standing still and infiltrate moisture at the ledger board?

 

[nealtw]

Interesting plan, I like it. But measurements and dimensions are decisive in this situation, and the height of the deck is rather low so if the ledger board was to be bolted to the house (concrete wall) the roof deck vertical clearance would be extremely low. Couldn't a large slope and extra flashing isolate mostly any standing still and infiltrate moisture at the ledger board?

Height from deck to top of windows or door which ever is highest.
Height from deck to top of trim over same window or door?
height from deck to bottom of fascia
Width and length of lower deck
Over hang measurements for the main roof back over deck back of addition, side of addition over deck, and side of main roof.

Simpsons never give up before they try one easy thing.:rofl:

 

[tk3000]

Height from deck to top of windows or door which ever is highest.
Height from deck to top of trim over same window or door?
height from deck to bottom of fascia
Width and length of lower deck
Over hang measurements for the main roof back over deck back of addition, side of addition over deck, and side of main roof.

Simpsons never give up before they try one easy thing.:rofl:

The lower deck itself is above ground (as can been seen by some of the pics). There is no much of a trim on the exterior of the window.

Height from top of window to lower deck: 68.5"
Height from lower deck to top of fascia board: 78"
Overhang measurement (depth): 18.5"

Overall length of lower deck: 167"
Overall width of lower deck: 118.5"

That should give you an idea. Some of the measurements are not very clear for me, let me know if you need any extra data! But it would be very difficult and impractical to affix another ledger board to the mains exterior concrete wall due to the clearance.

 

[nealtw]

The lower deck itself is above ground (as can been seen by some of the pics). There is no much of a trim on the exterior of the window.

Height from top of window to lower deck: 68.5"
Height from lower deck to top of fascia board: 78"
Overhang measurement (depth): 18.5"

Overall length of lower deck: 167"
Overall width of lower deck: 118.5"

That should give you an idea. Some of the measurements are not very clear for me, let me know if you need any extra data! But it would be very difficult and impractical to affix another ledger board to the mains exterior concrete wall due to the clearance.

OK then, I was expecting the the top of the window to be 82". So you are right that just won't work.
So now we are back to the mickey mouse stuff where we started.

Pull down the vinyl soffet and inspect the fascia and the liner behind it for rot and if you are happy with that install the hangers I posted earlier add more nails or screws between the fascia and liner.
On the out side add another 2x6 to the outside one to make that a beam and
Cut the railing out enough to install 2 treated 2x4 to each post to support the beam.
I would cover that with 5/8 construction grade plywood.
Plywood because OSB will swell up if or when it gets wet.
"H" clips are put on the edge of roof sheeting so the sheets don't bend independently when you walk on them. One clip in the middle between 2 joists.

 

[nealtw]

I know I wouldn't want to be the author of a catastrophe of well meant intentions.

Anything you want to add to my last post?:hide: