Why does this wire not have a ground?

[farmerjohn1324]

No! They are designed that way as a retainer so that the 6" of working conductor length, is not diminished.

Well it's near impossible sliding them in and out. I am having to push so hard that it has caused connections to come loose.

It is literally impossible for me to push or pull these wires through this box. There is no way this is how it was designed because it makes no sense.

 

[Snoonyb]

There should be no need to remove them.

It's your methodology. Insert the romex, secure the box in the wall, strip the romex and conductors, connect the device and fold the conductors into the box, secure, install the cover plate and off you go.

 

[farmerjohn1324]

There should be no need to remove them.

It's your methodology. Insert the romex, secure the box in the wall, strip the romex and conductors, connect the device and fold the conductors into the box, secure, install the cover plate and off you go.

Okay thanks.

 

[JoeD]

You should not have all that sheathing in the box. There should only be 1" or less sheathing and then minimum of 6" of wire for the connection to the device.

 

[farmerjohn1324]

You should not have all that sheathing in the box. There should only be 1" or less sheathing and then minimum of 6" of wire for the connection to the device.

Okay thanks.

 

[hornetd]

Okay.

Now if I were to reconnect the single green ground wire to the first GFCI in the series, would it be a hazard? Would it make any difference at all? Would it allow me not to have to put that sticker on the outlets?

Because that would create a path for current to reach the ground bar on the panel (and eventually the Earth), right? The fact that it comes from a different circuit is irrelevant to it's ability to act as a ground wire.

You are correct that the ground wire in the other circuit would go back to the Neutral at the Service Equipment Enclosure. The factor that you do not seem to be aware of is that every piece of metal through which that Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) passes will cause Inductive Reactance in the EGC. The magnetic field around a single conductor is not cancelled out by the same field from the other conductor if the current is not flowing through wires which are quite close to each other. Reactance is a form of resistance to current flow that is unique to AC circuits. The magnetic field passing through the metal wall of each box induces a circulating current flow in the metal. That current flow causes a magnetic field around the metal of the box that is not rising and falling in voltage at the same time as the current that caused it. That unsynchronized magnetic field radiating back from the metal of the box induces a voltage into the wire that the first magnetic field came from. Since the two voltages in the wire are not synchronized with each other the second voltage "fights" the original circuit voltage and reduces the flow of current. When both parts of the current path are in the same trench, raceway, or cable then the current flow at any given point in time is opposite the current flowing in the other conductor. That causes the two magnetic fields around those wires to cancel each other out which makes the Inductive Reactance almost Zero. The stronger the initial current flow is the stronger the reflected voltage will also be. This additional resistance to current flow can cause a delay in the operation of the Over Current Protective Device (OCPD) such as circuit breakers. If the current is leaking to the EGC from an Arcing fault then any delay on the operation of the OCPD will cause the arc to last longer and generate more heat. That raises the likelihood of a fire of electrical origin. Rather that tying the separate EGC wire to the EGC of a different circuit the code allows you to run it back to the Service Equipment, to the Grounding Electrode Conductor, or to any of the Grounding Electrodes that form part of the Grounding Electrode System. That way the Fault Current Pathway will not be through the walls of several metal boxes as in unbalanced current. If all of the boxes of the other circuit are plastic then the amount of Reactance that results from the divergent pathway will probably be negligible.

 

[hornetd]

Please site a code section applicable to the NEC as adopted and amended in the county in Florida the OP resides in.

That is a ridiculous demand. nealtw didn't say it was forbidden at Farmer Johns location. He said in "Some Places." If the NEC is adopted by reference in FarmerJohn's location then extending an Equipment Grounding Conductor from the GFCI receptacle box to the ungrounded receptacles which are protected by that GFCI is indeed a violation of the NEC. You will find the prohibitive language in the same section that allows the protection of Grounding Receptacles that are installed were there is no ground by a GFCI and also requires those GFCI receptacles to be labeled "No Equipment Grounding Conductor."

 

[hornetd]

No! They are designed that way as a retainer so that the 6" of working conductor length, is not diminished.

That really does depend on what you mean by "Tabs." If it is a lightweight piece of plastic that is there just to provide some closure to unused knock outs then you remove those completely. If is is the heavy finger like tabs that are hard to move and have ridges across them to hold the jacket of the cable in place then you do not remove those.

Put a single layer of tape over the conductors you have already striped the jacket off of. Put just an inch of the taped conductors into the box and push the remainder of the wire and cable back in the wall. With the cable out of the way put the box in place in the wall. Grab the end of the taped wires with your lineman's or small point pliers. Pull the cables into the box until the jacket is under the molded in clamps and 1/4" to 1/2" of jacket cab be seen beyond the clamp. Now you should be able to secure it in place as designed and proceed to wire up the devices and mount them to the box. If you have more than 1/2" of cable jacket inside the box it will be very hard to work with.

 

[Snoonyb]

That is a ridiculous demand. nealtw didn't say it was forbidden at Farmer Johns location. He said in "Some Places." If the NEC is adopted by reference in FarmerJohn's location then extending an Equipment Grounding Conductor from the GFCI receptacle box to the ungrounded receptacles which are protected by that GFCI is indeed a violation of the NEC. You will find the prohibitive language in the same section that allows the protection of Grounding Receptacles that are installed were there is no ground by a GFCI and also requires those GFCI receptacles to be labeled "No Equipment Grounding Conductor."

Actually, it isn't "ridiculous" to ask that a poster references a code and section as adopted and amended in the governing jurisdiction where this OP is performing a permitted, or non permitted remodel.

The information generated is for more than a singular use.

 

[farmerjohn1324]

You are correct that the ground wire in the other circuit would go back to the Neutral at the Service Equipment Enclosure. The factor that you do not seem to be aware of is that every piece of metal through which that Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) passes will cause Inductive Reactance in the EGC. The magnetic field around a single conductor is not cancelled out by the same field from the other conductor if the current is not flowing through wires which are quite close to each other. Reactance is a form of resistance to current flow that is unique to AC circuits. The magnetic field passing through the metal wall of each box induces a circulating current flow in the metal. That current flow causes a magnetic field around the metal of the box that is not rising and falling in voltage at the same time as the current that caused it. That unsynchronized magnetic field radiating back from the metal of the box induces a voltage into the wire that the first magnetic field came from. Since the two voltages in the wire are not synchronized with each other the second voltage "fights" the original circuit voltage and reduces the flow of current. When both parts of the current path are in the same trench, raceway, or cable then the current flow at any given point in time is opposite the current flowing in the other conductor. That causes the two magnetic fields around those wires to cancel each other out which makes the Inductive Reactance almost Zero. The stronger the initial current flow is the stronger the reflected voltage will also be. This additional resistance to current flow can cause a delay in the operation of the Over Current Protective Device (OCPD) such as circuit breakers. If the current is leaking to the EGC from an Arcing fault then any delay on the operation of the OCPD will cause the arc to last longer and generate more heat. That raises the likelihood of a fire of electrical origin. Rather that tying the separate EGC wire to the EGC of a different circuit the code allows you to run it back to the Service Equipment, to the Grounding Electrode Conductor, or to any of the Grounding Electrodes that form part of the Grounding Electrode System. That way the Fault Current Pathway will not be through the walls of several metal boxes as in unbalanced current. If all of the boxes of the other circuit are plastic then the amount of Reactance that results from the divergent pathway will probably be negligible.

Okay. It runs through one box, which is metal. I will replace the metal box with a plastic one and everything should be good.

 

[farmerjohn1324]

What is the purpose of this piece of black plastic that is behind the terminal screw? All it seems to be doing is getting in the way of tightening the wire.

 

[afjes_2016]

If you are referring to "A" it is to help keep the conductor in place while being tightened. The conductor would normally turn as you tighten it. This keeps it in place for a secure fit.

Also your strip of the conductor is far too long and exceeds far too much around the screw which is probably causing you issues with that "black piece of plastic". The strip should only go from the bottom of the screw (from the back of the receptacle) 2/3 of the way around the screw - not like you have it; causing me to assume you are referring to "A".

And - you did not even need to wrap the conductor around the screw. You could have saved yourself some time. That receptacle has "pressure plates" and using them would have been far easier and just as reliable. Again, do some reading on the basics.

 

[hornetd]

Actually, it isn't "ridiculous" to ask that a poster references a code and section as adopted and amended in the governing jurisdiction where this OP is performing a permitted, or non permitted remodel.

The information generated is for more than a singular use.

OK we disagree. That needn't be the end of the world as we know it. I would think that the OP could check from the national document for any difference to the locally adopted version. Like the code itself I do not think anyone should use this site as a "Training Manual for untrained persons." If the OP cannot do that much for themselves then they have absolutely no business meddling with electrical work. If a person needs to be spoon fed then they need to "Put down the Kliens before anyone gets hurt."

 

[hornetd]

What is the purpose of this piece of black plastic that is behind the terminal screw? All it seems to be doing is getting in the way of tightening the wire.

With that receptacle design there are several ways to make a good connection. One of those ways it to back the screw out until it is no longer easy to turn. Do not force it any further or you will damage the receptacle's contact plate. Strip the wire for the width of a pair of lineman's pliers. Put the tip of the stripped wire between the black plastic block and the screw and turn the receptacle clockwise. The stripped wire ends up fairly tightly wrapped around the screw which is then tightened down onto the stripped portion of the wire. If any unstripped wire extends beyond the back of the receptacle the stripped portion was too long. If any insulation actually touches the screw the stripped portion was too short.

The easier way to terminate that receptacle has already been explained by another poster. Strip to the gauge that is molded into the back of the receptacle, insert the wire straight in between the contact plate, that the screw is threaded into, and the pressure plate that is held by the head of the screw. You can put two conductors under one screw when it is fitted with a wire trapping pressure plate. If the pressure plate does not turn down at the edges then see if the contact plate has one wire groove or two. The number of wire grooves under the flat pressure plate is the number of wires that can be terminated. No manufacturer makes a three wire termination at this time. The instructions included with the listing and or labeling specifically forbid wrapping a wire above the pressure plate if there are one or more terminated under the pressure plate. The NEC requires that listed devices be installed in accordance with the instructions included with the listing or labeling. Sems pressure washers, were the washer turns down at each corner, are no longer used in receptacle manufacture but if they are encountered in an existing device they can be used to terminate two wires.

 

[farmerjohn1324]

If you are referring to "A" it is to help keep the conductor in place while being tightened. The conductor would normally turn as you tighten it. This keeps it in place for a secure fit.

Also your strip of the conductor is far too long and exceeds far too much around the screw which is probably causing you issues with that "black piece of plastic". The strip should only go from the bottom of the screw (from the back of the receptacle) 2/3 of the way around the screw - not like you have it; causing me to assume you are referring to "A".

And - you did not even need to wrap the conductor around the screw. You could have saved yourself some time. That receptacle has "pressure plates" and using them would have been far easier and just as reliable. Again, do some reading on the basics.

Yes, "A."

Can you give a ballpark figure for how much copper to expose? I did 1".

You said I didn't need to wrap the wires around. Did you mean pre-bend the wire in the shape of a hook? That's what I did, then I crimped more as I tightened the screw.

I was told to put 6" of wire in the box in addition to 1" of Romex. This is what I did. I had 2 Romex so 6" of black, white, copper + black, white, copper, plus a 6" copper pigtail. It was quite difficult to fit all this back in the box, but I got it done. I think I would have been better off with 4", but I don't want to do something dangerous or something that I shouldn't do.

 

[afjes_2016]

Yes, "A." Can you give a ballpark figure for how much copper to expose? I did 1".

Expose enough copper to wrap the conductor about 2 - 3rds around a screw (again in this case since it has a pressure plate) just expose enough copper from insert point to end of pressure plate.

You said I didn't need to wrap the wires around. Did you mean pre-bend the wire in the shape of a hook? That's what I did, then I crimped more as I tightened the screw.

When you have a pressure plate to work with in this case there is not need to expose enough copper to make a "pre-bend". Just insert the stripped bare conductor into the pressure plate and tighten the screw.

I was told to put 6" of wire in the box in addition to 1" of Romex. This is what I did. I had 2 Romex so 6" of black, white, copper + black, white, copper, plus a 6" copper pigtail. It was quite difficult to fit all this back in the box, but I got it done. I think I would have been better off with 4", but I don't want to do something dangerous or something that I shouldn't do.

Ahh, working with 12 gauge?? Not so easy. Technically, code states to have the conductors extend 6" from the outer edge (face) of the box. As far as how much romex (sheathing) should extend into the box would be about 1/4 to 1/2 - no more than that.

 

[Snoonyb]

OK we disagree. That needn't be the end of the world as we know it. I would think that the OP could check from the national document for any difference to the locally adopted version. Like the code itself I do not think anyone should use this site as a "Training Manual for untrained persons." If the OP cannot do that much for themselves then they have absolutely no business meddling with electrical work. If a person needs to be spoon fed then they need to "Put down the Kliens before anyone gets hurt."

Yes we will and any time I quote or question the intent and purpose, I provide the subject verbiage as well as how it was amended, as a curtousey, have you?

If you took the time and followed this poster you'd be amazed how naive he is and how he has benefited from the 100's of years of knowledge he has availed himself of.

 

[farmerjohn1324]

Yes we will and any time I quote or question the intent and purpose, I provide the subject verbiage as well as how it was amended, as a curtousey, have you?

If you took the time and followed this poster you'd be amazed how naive he is and how he has benefited from the 100's of years of knowledge he has availed himself of.

How am I naive? I've fixed every problem I've had and never caused a fire.

 

[farmerjohn1324]

Expose enough copper to wrap the conductor about 2 - 3rds around a screw (again in this case since it has a pressure plate) just expose enough copper from insert point to end of pressure plate.


When you have a pressure plate to work with in this case there is not need to expose enough copper to make a "pre-bend". Just insert the stripped bare conductor into the pressure plate and tighten the screw.




Ahh, working with 12 gauge?? Not so easy. Technically, code states to have the conductors extend 6" from the outer edge (face) of the box. As far as how much romex (sheathing) should extend into the box would be about 1/4 to 1/2 - no more than that.

1/4 to 1/2"? And 6" from the plate means that less than 6" goes in because the terminal screw is a slight distance from the plate? And if I'm doing a pigtail, I'll do 2x 3"?

 

[Snoonyb]

How am I naive? I've fixed every problem I've had and never caused a fire.

Without this and other forums, where would you be?

You are still learning the terminology that speaks our language.

My work ethic, since I was 8, on a farm in North Dakota, was someone is going to get paid to do this, so why not me, and I learned it, without the internet.

Terminology I learned over 40yrs. ago, before the internet, and I'm sure I am not alone in that.