Grounding an outlet Puzzle

[Snoonyb]

You are really determined to discredit any answer that does not agree with your "the code doesn't matter" approach.

As I've twice proposed, and you have "elected" to ignore, it's about practicality, and nothing else, so no amount of additional pontifications are relevant.

I've never said, and you'll never find anything in any of my posts, ever, that you could back quote, where I have stated, "the code doesn't matter".

 

[bud16415]

We should all attempt to follow code and do our best. We also have to remember most coming here as a DIY project need a simplified description of what to do. My first thoughts when viewing this thread if it was mine I would start where the known proper power was and remove and replace all the rest of it doing it in romex and using a GFCI to protect the outlet as it is in a basement. What is the purpose of needing conduit and pulling new wires in?


We all have to make decisions about things from time to time. When I installed my hot tub I started at my panel adding a 50a breaker and ran #6 romex NM-B copper. All across the basement and had to exit the basement wall and run up about 5’ into the Tubs GFCI breaker panel mounted outside. By code I assume I had to switch to THHN before making that short jump. If I ran inside the outside wall and in the back of the GFCI box I assume I could stick with the NM-B all the way. Rather than adding a box and splicing the wires I ran the NM-B up a 2” PVC conduit from the basement to the GFCI. Of course then exiting the GFCI and on to the tub I needed (7) number 8 THHN individual wires in conduit to the tub.


I don’t feel at all unsafe in how I did it over that short a distance and the Romex has lots of room in the large conduit and is protected on the outside. I feel it’s safer than the service coming into my house that runs down the outside siding and is not in a pipe.


That being said we should explain the right way and provide proper safety instructions and let the OP decide what they want to do.

 

[hornetd]

Sometimes you get lucky. I depends very much on how good the fire investigator is and also how diligent the insurer's loss
reduction staff is. It also varies by insurance company and by whether it is a Stock or Mutual Insurer. Stock companies must look out for their shareholders first. Mutual Companies must look out for their insureds first. That makes a very big difference in the insurer's approach.

--
Tom Horne

 

[slownsteady]

Before this thread gets any deeper into the deep weeds, let me ask: what's the other end of that green wire attached to? It's obvious that it is not a ground wire at this point, so connecting it as a ground (once the extra wire is added) will require that it be properly connected at the other end.

 

[hornetd]

We all have to make decisions about things from time to time. When I installed my hot tub I started at my panel adding a 50a breaker and ran #6 romex NM-B copper. All across the basement and had to exit the basement wall and run up about 5’ into the Tubs GFCI breaker panel mounted outside. By code I assume I had to switch to THHN before making that short jump. If I ran inside the outside wall and in the back of the GFCI box I assume I could stick with the NM-B all the way. Rather than adding a box and splicing the wires I ran the NM-B up a 2” PVC conduit from the basement to the GFCI. Of course then exiting the GFCI and on to the tub I needed (7) number 8 THHN individual wires in conduit to the tub.

I have never seen cable in that size which did not have individually marked conductors. If that 6-2 w Ground NMB had been connected to your conduit with a listed cable connector, after having stripped it of it's jacket and fillers for the length of the conductors which would be in the conduit, your installation would be code compliant. All outdoor conduit is a wet location by definition. NMB is only suitable for use in dry locations.

--
Tom Horne

 

[hornetd]

As I've twice proposed, and you have "elected" to ignore, it's about practicality, and nothing else, so no amount of additional pontifications are relevant.

I've never said, and you'll never find anything in any of my posts, ever, that you could back quote, where I have stated, "the code doesn't matter".

You did, in fact use different language. How can you say that you are not saying that the code doesn't matter given the phrase that I have added emphasis to; by underlining and making it bold type; in the quote of your reply above?

Tom Horne

 

[bud16415]

I have never seen cable in that size which did not have individually marked conductors. If that 6-2 w Ground NMB had been connected to your conduit with a listed cable connector, after having stripped it of it's jacket and fillers for the length of the conductors which would be in the conduit, your installation would be code compliant. All outdoor conduit is a wet location by definition. NMB is only suitable for use in dry locations.

--
Tom Horne

Mine was NMB rated for normally dry locations. I didn’t strip the outer covering and ran it into the conduit with a strain relief bushing. I did not remove the outer covering and filler until it reached the GFCI breaker box. Nothing is underground and the installation is as dry as if I ran it inside the exterior wall IMO.


The individual conductors had no markings and I have never seen marked conductors inside romex. This stuff came from Home Depot.


I may well not be to code here. It was the choice I made at the time and I don’t feel unsafe in making it. Someday down the road if we sell the place some home inspector might find issue with it.

 

[Snoonyb]

You did, in fact use different language. How can you say that you are not saying that the code doesn't matter given the phrase that I have added emphasis to; by underlining and making it bold type; in the quote of your reply above?

Tom Horne

So, you have "elected" to decide that your interpretation of what I specifically asked, "practicality", now for the 3rd time, equates to " the code does not matter", is at least, an interesting juxtaposition from reality.

 

[Snoonyb]

Before this thread gets any deeper into the deep weeds, let me ask: what's the other end of that green wire attached to? It's obvious that it is not a ground wire at this point, so connecting it as a ground (once the extra wire is added) will require that it be properly connected at the other end.

It's a switch leg and is probably connected to the black conductor of the light fixture.

I've asked the OP for a photo of the the "J" box connection.

 

[Snoonyb]

Mine was NMB rated for normally dry locations. I didn’t strip the outer covering and ran it into the conduit with a strain relief bushing. I did not remove the outer covering and filler until it reached the GFCI breaker box. Nothing is underground and the installation is as dry as if I ran it inside the exterior wall IMO.


The individual conductors had no markings and I have never seen marked conductors inside romex. This stuff came from Home Depot.


I may well not be to code here. It was the choice I made at the time and I don’t feel unsafe in making it. Someday down the road if we sell the place some home inspector might find issue with it.

Forsake thee!

It's not you intent to supplant metheusal or the medusa?

 

[slownsteady]

I wouldn't be surprised if the OP has run away from this thread by now............

Hey guys, let's not get caught in the language here (or any other place for that matter). We have given the OP some options and a lesson on what should be done.

 

[slownsteady]

....and let's not stray on to someone else's past installation.

 

[hornetd]

I had a customer who was referred by an architect I had done work for. He called ahead and told me she was poor as church mouse and asked that I do what I could for her. The challenges were that it was after midnight, the wind was between 25 and 30 miles per hour, so the rain was coming down near sideways. She called a half hour later and said that there was a light in her basement that would not go out and it was scaring her. I drove the 15 miles to her home and went with her down to the basement. The light that would not go out was the 16 gauge lamp cord that was held up by porcelain insulators to the sides and bottom of the joists glowing in the dark. Underneath those wires was a plastic image of the wires overhead from the plastic insulation having melted off of the conductors. Her then deceased husband had wired some living room outlets with the lamp cord and his work was neat as a pin. There was no grounding conductor and the whole thing had been done just like some of the home's other circuits which were knob and tube. Was that wiring practical? It had served the couple well for 15+ years. But a heat wave set in and the lady's daughter had bought her mother a window air conditioner to give her one cool room in her house. Once that was plugged into one of those outlets the unavoidable happened. 13 ampere wiring extended from a 15 ampere circuit with a heavy constant load had badly overloaded the 16 gauge wire. That wiring had worked for a very long time in the roll for which it was installed which was a few table lamps in the living room. Even the regular use of a vacuum cleaner had not damaged that wiring. I think it is fair to say that the lady's husband had never set out to injure his wife or burn down their home. Our job as electrical workers isn't to build for the present load. What we are supposed to be doing is building for any load which could be supplied by the circuit that we are building. It is certainly possible that a window air conditioner could be plugged into any 15 ampere circuit. Most modern window air conditioners do not require the entire ampacity of a 15 ampere circuit and I might never have been called if the living room had closable doors. Without that one flaw in the units use it would have functioned as designed as an intermittent load. But with a whole floor worth of hot air to work on it ran continuously until I yanked the meter. Way over the top I might well have thought hearing that from someone else but her husband had also fancied himself as a plumber. I mentioned it was raining very hard but that leaves out the fact that the city has the old combined drains and sewers which are so common in older cities. Since her house was at the bottom of town and there were openings in the sewer piping in the basement there was a lot of methane flowing into that basement. No liquid just the gas. I called in the fire department and they could not get their combustible gas meter through it's pre-use test until they took it out to the back fence. It then went into alarm before they were actually back in the basement with it. Just a few steps down the outside steps and it was howling. Have I mentioned how much I hate the sound of piezoelectric alarms. I'm sure glad that I disconnected the power from outside. Read back through this and you will see that the only thing physically wrong with the circuit was that the wire was 1 gauge too small. The additional danger was created by something totally beyond an electricians control. But had that installation been fully code compliant all that could have occurred was the opening of the Over Current Protective Device. God must love retired teachers because the story has a very happy ending but that is enough to illustrate the basis of my concern.

--
Tom Horne