Deck Repair and Making Sense of What's There Now

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AdrianeS said:
The stairs are not anywhere near the porch, unless you're referring to the porch stairs but I don't think you are.
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My imagination was tricking me. I just assumed the stairs were accessible from the entryway going up with the basement stairs just behind them accessible from the front end of the kitchen.
 
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Not sure I understand? The basement stairs are maybe 10 or 15 feet behind the porch if that's what you meant?
 
To conserve floor space staircases were often complementary. That is the stairs going upward might have parallel stairs going down. So I was imagining your stairs going upward from the entryway and the stairs to the basement being under them. It's hard for me to describe in words but as descending into the basement there would be a sloping ceiling (if sealed) representing the back side of the stairs going upward. My mom's house didn't have a basement so there was a pantry which was in reality under the landing of the stairs to the upper level. For your house I envisioned the stepped windows with the lower one being on the landing of the stairs and your side door being on the landing of the basement stairs. If I am correct the floor framing in that area would have a transitional area between the entryway and the end of the kitchen.
 
I'm sorry that my musings regarding construction have gotten off track from your repair but your postings make it clear how the porch joists are foundationally supported in case they require replacement or treating and sistering.

I am skeptical of membranes due to the necessity of nail and/or screw penetrations and depending upon the flooring grooves for runoff.. I think if it were me I would replace any damaged wood with treated wood (make certain that there is no joist compromise) maintaining the slope for drainage and topping with slate, tile or even a poured surface that is weatherproof. There are YouTube presentations dealing with roof support column repairs. They may not exactly represent your situation but will show how to use a bottle jack or screw jack columns for roof support while placing flooring under and/or repairing the foot of the column if necessary.
 
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Eddie_T said:
To conserve floor space staircases were often complementary. That is the stairs going upward might have parallel stairs going down. So I was imagining your stairs going upward from the entryway and the stairs to the basement being under them. It's hard for me to describe in words but as descending into the basement there would be a sloping ceiling (if sealed) representing the back side of the stairs going upward. My mom's house didn't have a basement so there was a pantry which was in reality under the landing of the stairs to the upper level. For your house I envisioned the stepped windows with the lower one being on the landing of the stairs and your side door being on the landing of the basement stairs. If I am correct the floor framing in that area would have a transitional area between the entryway and the end of the kitchen.
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Oh, I see what you meant! Yes you are correct except for that the stairs. if facing the house at the front door, are a little bit off to the right. I do not see anything different in the framing between the entryway and kitchen but I could be overlooking something.
 
Eddie_T said:
I'm sorry that my musings regarding construction have gotten off track from your repair but your postings make it clear how the porch joists are foundationally supported in case they require replacement or treating and sistering.

I am skeptical of membranes due to the necessity of nail and/or screw penetrations and depending upon the flooring grooves for runoff.. I think if it were me I would replace any damaged wood with treated wood (make certain that there is no joist compromise) maintaining the slope for drainage and topping with slate, tile or even a poured surface that is weatherproof. There are YouTube presentations dealing with roof support column repairs. They may not exactly represent your situation but will show how to use a bottle jack or screw jack columns for roof support while placing flooring under and/or repairing the foot of the column if necessary.
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Thank you, I too was unsure of how to use any waterproofing membrane due to nail or screw holes. I found an interesting idea of laying the waterproofing and then putting sleepers over the membrane and nailing the new wood flooring to that. I wouldn't have the space to do that without creating a big step up from the doorway but it got me thinking, if I tear out the subflooring completely, maybe I could build some type of smaller supports instead and attach decking to that? I really don't like the idea of anything other than wood, or something that resembles it, for the front porch.
 
PM sent.

I saw on YouTube where someone actually let treated wood dry then routed it for tongue and groove installation. If you could do something like that over a waterproof substrate and keep it level with interior flooring it would be a win-win situation. Maybe there's a sealing membrane that would seal around nails or screws. IDK it's outside my experience.
 
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I haven’t been involved in your thread, as you have been getting a lot of help from others. I will toss my two cents in for what it is worth.



First off for this neck of the woods where you and I live it is a little different for your porch to have a basement under it. most of the homes at least in the Erie area have just a crawl space under the porch. It is also different that you have brick foundation walls so that a sign to me you have a very fine house of the time it was built.



I see it as you have two options one is to piece in a repair of just the bad area and from your below photos showing you have no water intrusion into the basements it kind of says to me the waterproof layer is still working fine. You are correct the way it was built was a floating floor on sleepers over a sub floor with some kind of a waterproof layer. It was likely made with hot tar and layers of roofing paper back in the day. Back then they didn’t have the pressure treated products of today and it looks to me the rot is confined to the top flooring and maybe the sleeper system. How the columns are built and attached and if they are actually holding the house and roof up is a big question and if the rot has traveled into the bases is a big question.



You can now buy PT T&G flooring at any of the builder centers.



What looks bad and rotted could be the extent of it or the damage could extend across the stoop and be hidden by the paint. Something like an ice pick is a good tool to test the wood and figure out what you want to remove and piece back in. I would try and remove the bad wood in strips so you can weave back in new wood, but I have seen many done where they just cut back a foot or two and show a repair line.



If you decide to replace it all it will be a much larger job and I would take it all off and get down to the water proof layer and add a modern layer over what was there before rebuilding.



I really think you can patch what you have now and get a lot more life out of it. The edges and end grain always see the weather and the effects of people putting salt on for snow and ice.



When it comes to repainting there are also some new products out there that might help. I’m not up on all that but would look into coatings for such repairs.
 
You'll also need to be cognizant of the lumber dimension's, because your original may be a lot thicker then what's presently available for repairs, IE, 2", 1-3/4, & 1-5/8, as opposed to some PT,(weather exposed products), 1-3/8", which can affect your level to level. As I recall the building code allows a max. of 1-1/8" at door to landing transitions.
 
Snoonyb said:
You'll also need to be cognizant of the lumber dimension's, because your original may be a lot thicker then what's presently available for repairs, IE, 2", 1-3/4, & 1-5/8, as opposed to some PT,(weather exposed products), 1-3/8", which can affect your level to level. As I recall the building code allows a max. of 1-1/8" at door to landing transitions.
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I agree PT thickness as well as width could be an issue. That and it is hard to find any PT around here that is not super wet. Going non-PT and maybe giving it a surface treatment might give you more of a chance to get a match.



Thinking about it the width issue may be why people just cut back a bad section straight and replace it.



Another option (maybe) would be to cut it back straight and then reverse the direction and fill in the section. That would look better and less like a patch job.
 
Eddie_T said:
PM sent.

I saw on YouTube where someone actually let treated wood dry then routed it for tongue and groove installation. If you could do something like that over a waterproof substrate and keep it level with interior flooring it would be a win-win situation. Maybe there's a sealing membrane that would seal around nails or screws. IDK it's outside my experience.
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This is exactly the idea I had! I could do that with either my router or a table saw. I'm thinking table saw due to the amount of boards needed. Making my own tongue and groove boards would also save me a ton of money. How are tongue and groove boards attached to the subfloor? Just nail/screw straight down and countersink?
 
bud16415 said:
I haven’t been involved in your thread, as you have been getting a lot of help from others. I will toss my two cents in for what it is worth.



First off for this neck of the woods where you and I live it is a little different for your porch to have a basement under it. most of the homes at least in the Erie area have just a crawl space under the porch. It is also different that you have brick foundation walls so that a sign to me you have a very fine house of the time it was built.



I see it as you have two options one is to piece in a repair of just the bad area and from your below photos showing you have no water intrusion into the basements it kind of says to me the waterproof layer is still working fine. You are correct the way it was built was a floating floor on sleepers over a sub floor with some kind of a waterproof layer. It was likely made with hot tar and layers of roofing paper back in the day. Back then they didn’t have the pressure treated products of today and it looks to me the rot is confined to the top flooring and maybe the sleeper system. How the columns are built and attached and if they are actually holding the house and roof up is a big question and if the rot has traveled into the bases is a big question.



You can now buy PT T&G flooring at any of the builder centers.



What looks bad and rotted could be the extent of it or the damage could extend across the stoop and be hidden by the paint. Something like an ice pick is a good tool to test the wood and figure out what you want to remove and piece back in. I would try and remove the bad wood in strips so you can weave back in new wood, but I have seen many done where they just cut back a foot or two and show a repair line.



If you decide to replace it all it will be a much larger job and I would take it all off and get down to the water proof layer and add a modern layer over what was there before rebuilding.



I really think you can patch what you have now and get a lot more life out of it. The edges and end grain always see the weather and the effects of people putting salt on for snow and ice.



When it comes to repainting there are also some new products out there that might help. I’m not up on all that but would look into coatings for such repairs.
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Thanks for chiming in! The main reason I was thinking of replacing the entire porch is because almost half of it is rotten, and more importantly, I can't find a match to the flooring boards I have now. Unless I make something myself using pressure treated boards instead of the original white oak. This makes me nervous because of the work involved in matching the tongues and grooves to fit the original boards.

As far as the column goes, the subfloor runs underneath it but the top layer of flooring does not. I really, really, don't want to mess around with jacking up the column to repair underneath and was thinking as an alternative to use one of those rotted wood hardeners along with epoxy wood filler if needed to just repair if I can get away with it. Something like this: PC Woody.
 
In my mind for a weatherproof seal straight down and countersunk screws would be better. After painting they would be hardly noticeable and painting with enamel was the period standard.
 
Eddie_T said:
In my mind for a weatherproof seal straight down and countersunk screws would be better. After painting they would be hardly noticeable and painting with enamel was the period standard.
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I will most definitely get a high-quality outdoor paint. I'm thinking BEHR porch and patio paint or their solid color stain, though I think the paint would be stronger as far as helping to create a weatherproof seal.
 
The columns likely have a structural post/pole inside them. if the wood of the columns is rotted they need to be properly repaired or replaced. My neighbor just did new bases on his in two halves and removed the bottom 8-10”.



If half the flooring is bad and the water membrane seal isn’t leaking I think it is safe to say the sub floor is ok. You will quickly see how it was built and how it was done that it didn’t make penetrations thru the water membrane. When you rip up the rotted flooring down to the water membrane I would at that point leave the old flashing and membrane and add a new one on top. Hopefully the new floor will outlive us all and you will never want to do the job again.



The flooring you replace it with will be the choice based on how close you want it to be original vs. modern stuff that wont require any work later.



Time to get the crowbar out.
 
Question, if I were to use non-pressure treated tongue and groove boards how would I go about sealing them for outdoor use?
 
bud16415 said:
The columns likely have a structural post/pole inside them. if the wood of the columns is rotted they need to be properly repaired or replaced. My neighbor just did new bases on his in two halves and removed the bottom 8-10”.



If half the flooring is bad and the water membrane seal isn’t leaking I think it is safe to say the sub floor is ok. You will quickly see how it was built and how it was done that it didn’t make penetrations thru the water membrane. When you rip up the rotted flooring down to the water membrane I would at that point leave the old flashing and membrane and add a new one on top. Hopefully the new floor will outlive us all and you will never want to do the job again.



The flooring you replace it with will be the choice based on how close you want it to be original vs. modern stuff that wont require any work later.



Time to get the crowbar out.
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Did you happen to come across any websites or videos showing how the porch was constructed? I'm just curious if there's anything else out there I can read before beginning. All my searches found were other posts similar to mine on various forums, with no real conclusive answers.
 
I just took a look at the post and the post itself is in good condition, no signs of rot. I'm unsure about the subfloor below the post though. Again, could I get away squirting in a bunch of rotted wood hardener and be done with it?
 
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