How to do the wiring to this center island?

[bud16415]

farmerjohn1324 you need to listen to what some people reply to you with before you just go off doing what you want and then when you get jammed up you ask for alternatives from us or ask us how we can help you back yourself up out of a corner you just painted yourself into.

Listen: bud16415 made it quite clear to you here
"By code you are not allowed to do that. Even if the wire inside may be the exact same wire it is not marked on the outside as such and allowed for that type of use."

If you are going to ask for advice and what code is and if you can do something and we take our time and answer you with our knowledge you can't just toss it off to the side and just take bits and pieces of what we say only when it is convenient for you. In doing this you are just wasting our time. It is quite obvious that you really don't care about safety but that you just want to get answers to get your work done and get paid.

Buy the right kind of wire for what you are doing. <--This is what bud16415 said. You just tossed it off as it had no meaning at all and just told us what you will do. Maybe, would you maybe be at all interested as to why bud16415 said this? No; well this is it. Conductors in sheathing as in Romex are not rated for damp/wet locations. The conductors in romex are only thhn where as the individual conductors that bud16415 told you were needed are rated at thwn and it is for good reason. They may fail in the future - why? Not telling you because apparently you just don't care. That's right go for the more inexpensive possible dangerous way to do it even though you were advised what not to do. You won't be living there.

You need to start learning some of the basics if you are going to be doing as much wiring as you are doing. You will also need to start planning things out in advance instead of telling us what you already installed and now that you find you are in a fix you need help.

First off I said that two circuits are not enough for the island because of the need of SAC. you asked what it was that I referred to and another member answered you but you never said; "Oh, then I better make sure I have three circuits". Did you look up what a small appliance circuit even is and the reason for it and why you can fail inspection instantly for not having it. Also, along with the fact that stating you were only running the two circuits to the island that you failed to plan ahead thinking even logically that receptacles may be needed at the island.

Example of what I am stating. You use what ever size conduit you wanted to, ran romex thru it and then ask your questions. Way off base and now we have to spend our time trying to correct it and most of the times you don't even head our advice and do as you please anyway.

Here bud16415 tells you what you need to use in the way of the type of insulation for the conductors and you are talking about amp rating of the conductors - apples and oranges not even related. If you planned this out you would know the answer to your own questions. a SAC needs to be what amp rating? - Answer please? What is a SAC other than what another member answered = don't know because you did not even bother to look it up? So now you have conduit buried in dried cement more than likely not the correct size ID for the number of conductors you will need and maybe you will find a way to jam them in there - which more than likely may cause an overheating issue of the conductors causing a circuit to fail or even something more serious.

Again I had told you many posts previously that if you are going to be working with electric as much as you are (seem to be) in your work that you get paid to do then it would be to your best interests to learn the basics of the electrical trade.

Well Said and Spot On!

 

[farmerjohn1324]

farmerjohn1324 you need to listen to what some people reply to you with before you just go off doing what you want and then when you get jammed up you ask for alternatives from us or ask us how we can help you back yourself up out of a corner you just painted yourself into.

Listen: bud16415 made it quite clear to you here
"By code you are not allowed to do that. Even if the wire inside may be the exact same wire it is not marked on the outside as such and allowed for that type of use."

If you are going to ask for advice and what code is and if you can do something and we take our time and answer you with our knowledge you can't just toss it off to the side and just take bits and pieces of what we say only when it is convenient for you. In doing this you are just wasting our time. It is quite obvious that you really don't care about safety but that you just want to get answers to get your work done and get paid.

Buy the right kind of wire for what you are doing. <--This is what bud16415 said. You just tossed it off as it had no meaning at all and just told us what you will do. Maybe, would you maybe be at all interested as to why bud16415 said this? No; well this is it. Conductors in sheathing as in Romex are not rated for damp/wet locations. The conductors in romex are only thhn where as the individual conductors that bud16415 told you were needed are rated at thwn and it is for good reason. They may fail in the future - why? Not telling you because apparently you just don't care. That's right go for the more inexpensive possible dangerous way to do it even though you were advised what not to do. You won't be living there.

You need to start learning some of the basics if you are going to be doing as much wiring as you are doing. You will also need to start planning things out in advance instead of telling us what you already installed and now that you find you are in a fix you need help.

First off I said that two circuits are not enough for the island because of the need of SAC. you asked what it was that I referred to and another member answered you but you never said; "Oh, then I better make sure I have three circuits". Did you look up what a small appliance circuit even is and the reason for it and why you can fail inspection instantly for not having it. Also, along with the fact that stating you were only running the two circuits to the island that you failed to plan ahead thinking even logically that receptacles may be needed at the island.

Example of what I am stating. You use what ever size conduit you wanted to, ran romex thru it and then ask your questions. Way off base and now we have to spend our time trying to correct it and most of the times you don't even head our advice and do as you please anyway.

Here bud16415 tells you what you need to use in the way of the type of insulation for the conductors and you are talking about amp rating of the conductors - apples and oranges not even related. If you planned this out you would know the answer to your own questions. a SAC needs to be what amp rating? - Answer please? What is a SAC other than what another member answered = don't know because you did not even bother to look it up? So now you have conduit buried in dried cement more than likely not the correct size ID for the number of conductors you will need and maybe you will find a way to jam them in there - which more than likely may cause an overheating issue of the conductors causing a circuit to fail or even something more serious.

Again I had told you many posts previously that if you are going to be working with electric as much as you are (seem to be) in your work that you get paid to do then it would be to your best interests to learn the basics of the electrical trade.

As soon as you told me I couldn't use Romex, I said I wasn't going to. I asked what was the correct wire to use. Are you saying that I can't use Romex underground, either?

Yes, I looked up Small Appliance Circuit. I found this article quoting a home inspector saying he doesn't think it needs a dedicated outlet.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.re.../kitchen_island_receptacle_dedicated_circuit/

And I have not read any code saying that it must be dedicated. If I ever do, then of course I will change it.

 

[bud16415]

As soon as you told me I couldn't use Romex, I said I wasn't going to. I asked what was the correct wire to use. Are you saying that I can't use Romex underground, either?

Yes, I looked up Small Appliance Circuit. I found this article quoting a home inspector saying he doesn't think it needs a dedicated outlet.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.re.../kitchen_island_receptacle_dedicated_circuit/

And I have not read any code saying that it must be dedicated. If I ever do, then of course I will change it.

I told you a couple times when you said you were going to pull romex thru the slab that it was both hard to do and not to code. The next time I looked you had a new thread saying you had no problem pulling the romex.

I am not an expert but I believe code says you can run romex thru conduit for a short distance like passing it thru a stone wall or something like that. Because of conduit size and wire count based on the size and heat build up they do not allow it for longer runs. Can someone post the NEC chapter and verse so John can read it for himself?

 

[afjes_2016]

...Yes, I looked up Small Appliance Circuit. I found this article quoting a home inspector saying he doesn't think it needs a dedicated outlet.

Never said it had to be dedicated nor did anyone else state that. We stated there should be a SAC in addition to the other circuits for the island. The reddit article will be confusing and misleading to a DIY but an electrician will spot the inconsitansies or even errors with even what the inspector stated. Problem lays in the "terminology" being used - all mixed up.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.re.../kitchen_island_receptacle_dedicated_circuit/

That will twist your head around a few times if anything - misleading, mixing terminology etc. Find a better article about SACs you will then see what I mean.

And I have not read any code saying that it must be dedicated. If I ever do, then of course I will change it...

You have not read it because there is no such code. Here lays a perfect example of a lack of understanding basic terminology. Suggestion, read up on the difference between a dedicated circuit and a SAC you will find that they are two totally different things which even the article is mixing into one (off base). No I am not going to type out the difference for ease.

Now that you know you need a third circuit at the island (or will know once you learn the difference between dedicated and SAC) did you do a check on the size conduit you used so you know that your fill rate won't be too high and cause issues? There are charts out on the web to tell you this.

 

[farmerjohn1324]

I told you a couple times when you said you were going to pull romex thru the slab that it was both hard to do and not to code. The next time I looked you had a new thread saying you had no problem pulling the romex.

I am not an expert but I believe code says you can run romex thru conduit for a short distance like passing it thru a stone wall or something like that. Because of conduit size and wire count based on the size and heat build up they do not allow it for longer runs. Can someone post the NEC chapter and verse so John can read it for himself?

So I should replace the underground Romex with UF-B cable?

 

[nealtw]

So I should replace the underground Romex with UF-B cable?

I am not knocking Bud and his attempts to help but you have a very qualified electrician trying to help. Why are you not asking questions of
afjes_2016 and just ignore the rest of us as we can just add confusion.

 

[bud16415]

So I should replace the underground Romex with UF-B cable?

There was a long discussion about labeling individual wires prior to pulling them, wire count and conduit size etc. some people even pull several spares as at some point down the road you may need them.

You can do it however you want. I have no idea if this is getting inspected or what is going to be allowed in your area. Did you supply specific plans when you started the project for approval to get permits? Are you planning on having to get some sign offs at the end of the project or are they periodic inspections of your work? Is this your own residence or a property you own and plan on renting? Or is a house you are redoing with plans of flipping. If you are planning on selling it then you will have people bringing thru home inspectors and they will be checking things against code in your area.

The NEC can be found on line and downloaded as a PDF and you can follow it section by section as you do a project.

 

[farmerjohn1324]

Never said it had to be dedicated nor did anyone else state that. We stated there should be a SAC in addition to the other circuits for the island. The reddit article will be confusing and misleading to a DIY but an electrician will spot the inconsitansies or even errors with even what the inspector stated. Problem lays in the "terminology" being used - all mixed up.


That will twist your head around a few times if anything - misleading, mixing terminology etc. Find a better article about SACs you will then see what I mean.


You have not read it because there is no such code. Here lays a perfect example of a lack of understanding basic terminology. Suggestion, read up on the difference between a dedicated circuit and a SAC you will find that they are two totally different things which even the article is mixing into one (off base). No I am not going to type out the difference for ease.

Now that you know you need a third circuit at the island (or will know once you learn the difference between dedicated and SAC) did you do a check on the size conduit you used so you know that your fill rate won't be too high and cause issues? There are charts out on the web to tell you this.

Dedicated circuit = a circuit dedicated to power one thing

Small Appliance Circuit = self explanatory

Of course it's apples to oranges.

There are 3 loads in this center island.

1. Dishwasher. Connected to a dedicated GFCI and a 20 amp breaker.

2. Garbage disposal.

3. GFCI on exterior of center island (the Small Appliance Circuit).

Where is it stated that I cannot have the garbage disposal and SAC on the same 20 amp breaker? I think you just said that code didn't exist.

Should I replace the Romex run underground? With what? UF-B cable?

What type of wire should I buy to run in the flexible conduit that I bought? I'm guessing individual (and color coded) 12 gauge wires.

Do you know how I connect my 1" conduit elbow to a 3/4" FSCC box? I can't find adapters to do this at Home Depot or Lowe's. The employees were actually telling me to look in the plumbing section, but I ran out of time so I'll have to go back.

Also, do you know how to attach flexible conduit to the F-series boxes that I bought?

 

[farmerjohn1324]

This is what I'm told online is a Liquidtite fitting, but I don't see how it would fit in my boxes, because they have smooth openings. Do I need just one more adapter?

At least I could get this part out of the way.

I need something like this, but that will glue to the smooth opening in the box.

 

[zannej]

I told you a couple times when you said you were going to pull romex thru the slab that it was both hard to do and not to code. The next time I looked you had a new thread saying you had no problem pulling the romex.

I am not an expert but I believe code says you can run romex thru conduit for a short distance like passing it thru a stone wall or something like that. Because of conduit size and wire count based on the size and heat build up they do not allow it for longer runs. Can someone post the NEC chapter and verse so John can read it for himself?

I wasn't aware of that. Can romex safely be run through larger conduit? Or is it something that just isn't allowed in conduit for long runs at all?
What wire would be allowed for long runs in conduit?

(Hope you don't mind me butting in, but I'm finding this thread very informative and want to take notes for things for the future -- plus, I just like to learn about these things).

Farmerjohn, on your last post, I believe the terms you need are "threaded" and "non-threaded". The image is of a threaded fitting (obviously). I'm not sure if that will help you in your search any. I wish I could help you on this, but I'm hoping you will get things sorted out. I think perhaps there was information overload and some confusion about terms that caused a little trouble.

On the boxes I have for my home, the non-threaded conduit just has the box sitting on top of it somewhat sans adhesives. That way if things need to be pulled apart any, there is some slack on the wires. I don't know if that is the proper way to do it though. Anyone know?

I do suggest that before you make more purchases and progress further that you do as Neal suggested. Come up with a plan, identify each fitting/part you will need, have it reviewed by someone who knows about code (like ajes) and purchase things after confirmation. I know that can be slow, but it can save $ in the long run.

 

[bud16415]

I wasn't aware of that. Can romex safely be run through larger conduit? Or is it something that just isn't allowed in conduit for long runs at all?
What wire would be allowed for long runs in conduit?

Zannej

I could try and answer your question as a non Pro. But of late we seem to have quite a few folks active in the trade and as Neil pointed out we should weigh and use their knowledge whenever they are willing to help over those of us that are still on the learning curve. So I will let them explain it and reference the exact NEC page the information can be found on.

For the most part the NEC is very clear and to the point on what is allowed but they do have gray areas sometime open to interpretation sometimes and some of the electrical forums debate at length those areas. Likewise different regions in the country have different interpretations of these areas.

I remember my dad stuffing romex thru a garden hose and running it between a couple out buildings for power. It was in no way correct even in 1960 but it worked for many, many years.

In giving advice here we should all be careful with keeping it as factual as we can myself included.

So Pros when can you put romex thru conduit above and below ground?

 

[farmerjohn1324]

I wasn't aware of that. Can romex safely be run through larger conduit? Or is it something that just isn't allowed in conduit for long runs at all?
What wire would be allowed for long runs in conduit?

(Hope you don't mind me butting in, but I'm finding this thread very informative and want to take notes for things for the future -- plus, I just like to learn about these things).

Farmerjohn, on your last post, I believe the terms you need are "threaded" and "non-threaded". The image is of a threaded fitting (obviously). I'm not sure if that will help you in your search any. I wish I could help you on this, but I'm hoping you will get things sorted out. I think perhaps there was information overload and some confusion about terms that caused a little trouble.

On the boxes I have for my home, the non-threaded conduit just has the box sitting on top of it somewhat sans adhesives. That way if things need to be pulled apart any, there is some slack on the wires. I don't know if that is the proper way to do it though. Anyone know?

I do suggest that before you make more purchases and progress further that you do as Neal suggested. Come up with a plan, identify each fitting/part you will need, have it reviewed by someone who knows about code (like ajes) and purchase things after confirmation. I know that can be slow, but it can save $ in the long run.

I went to Lowe's and got my fitting situation figured out.

Should I replace the underground Romex with UF-B? The total length of each of the fished wires is about 15 ft., with about 6 ft. of it being underground.

Do you know what kind of wire I should use once I get under the sink to go to all the receptacles? Is this also UF-B?

 

[farmerjohn1324]

I am definitely replacing the Romex underground with UF-B cable. (Which apparently stands for Underground Feeder).

But what type of wire is needed inside the sink cabinet when it is running through Liquid Tight non-metallic conduit?

Something tells me it should be this...

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwi...een-Solid-CU-THHN-Tri-Wire-59318201/206205907

 

[farmerjohn1324]

I am definitely replacing the Romex underground with UF-B cable. (Which apparently stands for Underground Feeder).

But what type of wire is needed inside the sink cabinet when it is running through Liquid Tight non-metallic conduit?

 

[zannej]

Farmerjohn, do you mean for an outlet that will be under the sink? Or just wire that will be passing through that area? I believe you need some wire that is rated for wet areas (just in case). Maybe it's not required, but I think I would do that if there is any chance of it getting hit with water.
https://www.thespruce.com/electrical-conductors-used-in-wet-locations-1152886 talks about the codes for wiring types. W apparently stands for "wet".

Also, I don't know if this helps, but this is a guide to install an outlet under a sink (but uses NM-B cable): https://www.handymanhowto.com/how-to-wire-an-electrical-outlet-under-the-kitchen-sink-part-6/

I know you said you got your fittings sorted out, but just my gut feeling on the electrical boxes-- I would go with plastic rather than metal on the off chance that a wire gets nicked and could electrify the metal box. I think they mentioned it on something about Holmes on Homes. I'm paranoid about these things.
That Electronic Engineering class I took in college back in the 90s didn't really stick with me. LOL.

 

[afjes_2016]

You want to use UF - let me understand. The conduit coming up thru the floor, where does it go when it goes down into the floor? Does the conduit extend past the floor level down into the ground itself and to another point of connection all using conduit or does the conduit break below the floor level and the romex is actually in the earth/ground itself exposed to the elements of the bare ground?

 

[farmerjohn1324]

You want to use UF - let me understand. The conduit coming up thru the floor, where does it go when it goes down into the floor? Does the conduit extend past the floor level down into the ground itself and to another point of connection all using conduit or does the conduit break below the floor level and the romex is actually in the earth/ground itself exposed to the elements of the bare ground?

The Romex is encased in conduit the entire time it's underground. It travels about 6', then goes into a wall where it travels vertically with no conduit until it enters the bottom of the panel.

I have already purchased the UF-B cable.

Here's an old picture from when the floor and wall were cut.

 

[farmerjohn1324]

In order to reduce from the 1" conduit coming up from the ground to the 1/2" conduit I'm using for the outlets under the sink, I had to use PVC plumbing parts.

A 1" coupling and 1"-1/2" bushing. I'm going to paint them gray.

Should I glue them with PVC Conduit Cement, or regular PVC Cement?

 

[JoeD]

PVC plumbing parts would fail an inspection. You must electrical parts.

 

[farmerjohn1324]

PVC plumbing parts would fail an inspection. You must electrical parts.

They don't exist. I even tried specialty electrical stores.

But do you know what kind of glue to use? I honestly don't think they will be able to tell.