Minimum wage increase

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You could look at it another way. Do you want to work for a guy that would throw you out and hire another guy for half your wage? Do all the other people that work for him want to stay there knowing that might happen to them? After he does it are the rest of the people going to work as hard knowing they are next? Will they find out who hired you and be going over to that boss and getting a job?

In Mexico when I was down there we were paying 50 cents an hour and I was down there about a month got to know the workers pretty well and left. I go back in 6 months and all new workers making 75 cents per hour and I ask what happen to the old people. Oh BMW put in a plant across the street and was paying 75 cents and they all left. That’s the way it works.


If someone came and offered you double to take a job for them and you left would you feel sorry for your old boss.
 
It's a wize man that sees a trap and steps around it.
Yes I have felt bad for a few bosses in my travels.
Yes supply and demand should apply to the wages of the day.
If you have to many hamburger stands the price should drop or the product should change or stores will close.
But if you have to many poor people that are willing to work, there is always some one to take that job.

We do expect certain things from the low wage earner, here they are required to to take a food safe coarse and most take that job as a profession with pride and maybe a first step after pulling themselves up by the boot straps
Do you not think that people who are in that situation or have worked thru that system, visit these pages.
Some of the discussions here are about very low end houses where people on the low end are doing there best to work there way up and be part of the middle class.

Just put yourself in those shoes for a while and go back a read some of the statements made in this thread and see how they would make you feel.
I think this site should be inclusive anything that would make people feel less than equall should not be posted.
There is an emotional side to every problem that is posted here and that should always be considered.
 
Having read through the thread, I don't get the impression that anything was stated with malice. Peoples life experiences give them a unique perspective of how they view the world and how they interact in it. I may agree or disagree with someone, but I can still respect their point of view, just may not be mine.

Let's please keep things civil, cause really, we're all friends here...I hope.
 
I have no control over who the boss hires, hell no i would not like it

no one with a right mind would.

but if the person is legal to work in this country, there is nothing i could do about it.

his/her company,,his/her rules

the government has no business setting the wages of a private owned company

as far as hiring a worker at a lower wage.

our profession is unique, all the plumbers in town, pretty much know each other, same with the owners.

if a owner pulled that crap in the plumbing communitee around here. it would not be long his doors would be closed,,no plumbers would work for him

that is a double edged sword, if you are a sorry worker, the word goes out on you. no one will hire you.

plumbing supply houses are a meeting place, early in the morning and in the evening
we are worse than old ladys on the back yard fence.
 
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A factor that we are all ignoring in this conversation is globalization. And I know this could open up a whole new 20 page discussion. But let's just look at it in this context for a minute.

In the past, there were certain factors that limited how low wages could go - namely the Atlantic and the Pacific. Employers had to make do with the workers that were here and those that had a way to make it to America. But now american workers are competing against chinese, indians, bangladeshis, thais,....and the list goes on. They work so cheap that it is worth it for companies to ship supplies there and ship products back and still make money on the deal.

So, do we wait for all those people to rise to our economic level, where they refuse to work for peanuts? Or do we compete in a race to the bottom, where we keep taking pay cuts until the work comes back here?

and before you all respond with the usual, "the quality of our products is so much better" and all that jazz. Remember that with a few exceptions, it's bulls&1t
 
that is where the government does their job.
slap HIGH tariffs or tax's on goods that were outsourced
that tax will raise the price per unit up to where it would be uneconomical to outsource the work
 
A factor that we are all ignoring in this conversation is globalization. And I know this could open up a whole new 20 page discussion. But let's just look at it in this context for a minute.

In the past, there were certain factors that limited how low wages could go - namely the Atlantic and the Pacific. Employers had to make do with the workers that were here and those that had a way to make it to America. But now american workers are competing against chinese, indians, bangladeshis, thais,....and the list goes on. They work so cheap that it is worth it for companies to ship supplies there and ship products back and still make money on the deal.

So, do we wait for all those people to rise to our economic level, where they refuse to work for peanuts? Or do we compete in a race to the bottom, where we keep taking pay cuts until the work comes back here?

and before you all respond with the usual, "the quality of our products is so much better" and all that jazz. Remember that with a few exceptions, it's bulls&1t


Now you are talking about what is really happening.

The article you linked was an interesting read but the premise was automation and robots are going to change the world into a place of hardly no work, The example they bring up over and over is Youngstown and their high unemployment. I live quite close to Youngstown and have been there in the hay day and been there recently and nowhere will you find buildings full of automation and robots replacing all the real people that you will find standing around out of work. What you will find is a lot of creepy rusted out old buildings with weeds growing in the parking lots where workers used to park and roofs falling in from neglect. No fat cat billionaire sitting there smoking a cigar as his self-contained robot plant runs itself spitting pipe onto train cars without human touch. If you would have went in those buildings 30 years ago that’s what you would have seen. Along with all the automation you would have seen 10,000 cars in the parking lots and people all around these fully automated plants setting up the machines and repairing them and checking them and some just watching them ready to hit the red Estop button when something jammed up.
Those plants are empty because the work went someplace else and that had nothing to do with automation.

Now the question you ask is: “So, do we wait for all those people to rise to our economic level, where they refuse to work for peanuts? Or do we compete in a race to the bottom, where we keep taking pay cuts until the work comes back here?”
They are not going to come up to our standard of living ever. They will move up and we will move down to meet them half way if we are lucky.
The big question is this. Is it happening to us? or Are we helping it happen? I don’t have the answers to those questions but I do know we have one of the most successful presidents in the history of the country if you base success on doing what you said you were going to do when you ran for office. That is he said his desire was to fundamentally transform America. And in 8 years mission accomplished.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2013/03/23/within-three-years-u-s-no-longer-no-1/

Don’t believe me in his own words.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrefKCaV8m4"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrefKCaV8m4[/ame]
 
Do you not think that people who are in that situation or have worked thru that system, visit these pages.
Some of the discussions here are about very low end houses where people on the low end are doing there best to work there way up and be part of the middle class.

Just put yourself in those shoes for a while and go back a read some of the statements made in this thread and see how they would make you feel.
I think this site should be inclusive anything that would make people feel less than equall should not be posted.
There is an emotional side to every problem that is posted here and that should always be considered.


Neal I certainly hope nothing I ever say will offend anyone here and if I ever have I truly regret it and would like to say I’m sorry.

I can totally relate to anyone trying to work their way up and I myself have had many humbling occasions in my life where I couldn’t make ends meet and had to eat humble pie. Right now I’m living in a 24k house that I had to evict the rats before I started making it livable, and almost all the materials I put back into the place were free or Craigslist finds. All my threads here I started I hope are inspirational to others trying to make something out of nothing. Years of hard work have taught me how to get the most out of the least and I particularly like threads where someone is trying to do the same.

I am a fan of hard love, I was raised that way and we don’t know what we can do until we are tested by ourselves. I don’t want to see people starve to death on the streets so someone else can have more. But trying and getting knocked down and trying again and on and on is not a bad thing if at some point you make a little progress. Some lessons don’t pay off I have had many, but they do build character.
 
Prices have already started to rise on food and services in preparation of the wage increase.
 
Just wait, only the beginning.


Water will seek its own level and so will a free market system without someone tampering with it. As Chris points out he’s noticing a rise in food and services already. That’s great except for the unintended consequences. There should be a fixed demand but in a tough economy spending becomes discretionary. The fast food worker gets a raise do to min wage going up. The fast food place has three ways to go but only two that are logical. First he could forgo his profits for the good of the country. Second he can lay some people off and do more with less pushing productivity by making workers work harder or finding ways of automation. Third he can raise prices. Also he can do some or all of the above in some combination. There comes a point in any business where you can make more money just investing your capital and sitting at home when you hit that point why run a business? The unintended consequence is people make choices with their limited funds. I go out for lunch quite a bit and if I can get lunch for 5 or 6 bucks and I’m feeling lazy I will do that. If lunch becomes 8 or 10 bucks I do the math and say Holy Mackerel I’m spending over 2 grand a year on fast food. I’m packing a lunch. As soon as I make the decision the economy adjusts slightly. Slight changes by many people become great changes. The food place then corrects its plan again and a cycle begins over.

We are seeing it here also. My dairy friends told me last week the milk bottling plants were turning away milk tanker trucks (the big silver tanker you see on the highways) sending them to the cheese plants and the cheese plants were full as demands are dropping. with nowhere to go and a time sensitive product the haulers were getting authorized to dump their loads. Too much for even the hog farmers to want. So 12 tankers got dumped in a manure digester. The number of people in the equation didn’t change so you would think demand shouldn’t have changed. Prices are fixed and controlled and the blowback to the farmers is lower prices. The farmers are selling out right and left and those hanging on are trying to shrink not grow. People selling replacement cows like my friends are actually giving them away with hopes when things turn around they will be paid. That worked for a time and now the working dairies are saying don’t bring them over even for free. The guy with the replacement cows has no choice except selling them for beef and would have done better just raising a beef cow.
 
People are taught to not do the math of what they spend in the long run on anything. Makes for better control if you can avoid that.
 
$15 minimum wage biting Seattle in the butt


Once again, liberal logic (now THERE'S an oxymoron) has proved to be fallacious, as we who have a bit of common sense have seen time and again. Seattle, Los Angeles, and San Francisco all raised the minimum wage with the idea that it would "help lift workers out of poverty". Well, guess what - lots of those workers don't want to be lifted out of poverty. GASP! Who woulda thunk it??

And there is plenty of other fallout for customers and businesses, again just as we expected. The damn libtards who passed the wage increases apparently are seriously reality-challenged - couldn't they foresee the things that are happening now? Aw, man - all them workers need is a chance! It'll be blue birds and sunny skies from now on!!

Today's forecast - overcast with widespread showers of bird ****...

From Fox News...

Seattle’s $15 minimum wage law is supposed to lift workers out of poverty and move them off public assistance. But there may be a hitch in the plan.

Evidence is surfacing that some workers are asking their bosses for fewer hours as their wages rise – in a bid to keep overall income down so they don’t lose public subsidies for things like food, child care and rent. Anybody who didn't think this would happen is either pretty damn naive or willfully stupid. Them social parasites don't want to lose them freebies.

Full Life Care, a home nursing nonprofit, told KIRO-TV in Seattle that several workers want to work less.

“If they cut down their hours to stay on those subsidies because the $15 per hour minimum wage didn’t actually help get them out of poverty, all you’ve done is put a burden on the business and given false hope to a lot of people,” said Jason Rantz, host of the Jason Rantz show on 97.3 KIRO-FM.

The twist is just one apparent side effect of the controversial -- yet trendsetting -- minimum wage law in Seattle, which is being copied in several other cities despite concerns over prices rising and businesses struggling to keep up.

The notion that employees are intentionally working less to preserve their welfare has been a hot topic on talk radio. While the claims are difficult to track, state stats indeed suggest few are moving off welfare programs under the new wage. HELLOOO!!! I saw this exact same thing happening when I worked for Social Services during my first year with the state (my year in Hell). Most of them don't want to work, and if you do line them up with a job they look for some way to get out of it.

Despite a booming economy throughout western Washington, the state’s welfare caseload has dropped very little since the higher wage phase began in Seattle in April. In March 130,851 people were enrolled in the Basic Food program. In April, the caseload dropped to 130,376.

At the same time, prices appear to be going up on just about everything. Absolutely anyone with a grain of common sense should have known that this would happen. You raise wages, you gotta raise prices. SFL.

Some restaurants have tacked on a 15 percent surcharge to cover the higher wages. And some managers are no longer encouraging customers to tip, leading to a redistribution of income. Workers in the back of the kitchen, such as dishwashers and cooks, are getting paid more, but servers who rely on tips are seeing a pay cut.

Some long-time Seattle restaurants have closed altogether, though none of the owners publicly blamed the minimum wage law.

“It’s what happens when the government imposes a restriction on the labor market that normally wouldn’t be there, and marginal businesses get hit the hardest, and usually those are small, neighborhood businesses,” said Paul Guppy, of the Washington Policy Center.

Seattle was followed by San Francisco and Los Angeles in passing a $15 minimum wage law. The wage is being phased in over several years to give businesses time to adjust. The current minimum wage in Seattle is $11. In San Francisco, it’s $12.25.

And it is spreading. Beyond the city of Los Angeles, the Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors this week also approved a $15 minimum wage.

New York state could be next, with the state Wage Board on Wednesday backing a $15 wage for fast-food workers, something Gov. Andrew Cuomo has supported.

Already, though, there are unintended consequences in other cities.

Comix Experience, a small book store in downtown San Francisco, has begun selling graphic novel club subscriptions in order to meet payroll. The owner, Brian Hibbs, admits members are not getting all that much for their $25 per month dues, but their “donation” is keeping him in business.

“I was looking at potentially having to close the store down and then how would I make my living?” Hibbs asked.

To date, he’s sold 228 subscriptions. He says he needs 334 to reach his goal of the $80,000 income required to cover higher labor costs. He doesn’t blame San Francisco voters for approving the $15 minimum wage, but he doesn’t think they had all the information needed to make a good decision.

The do-gooder liberals who passed this feel-good crap have only themselves and their rose-colored glasses to blame.
 
anything that foxnews says must be filtered before it can be consumed.


fox news is just like any other news it is slanted.

only fox news is slanted to the right and other news [abc,cnbc,]is slanted to the wrong,,

fox news will actually give you the news, it may be slanted, but they will report it.
unlike others who will ignore anything that makes the "poser" or his kind look bad

right this minute,,,poser is crying the IRS is underfunded

MAYBE,,If they wernt spending millions on attorneys and BS bonuses
AND trips to vegas to make star trek videos, they would have money
 
anything that foxnews says must be filtered before it can be consumed.


Everyone’s perspective is a function of their vantage point. Everyone has different truths and the nature of truth is there can only be one true truth. If it was math 2+2=4 every time and we assume that to be true truth. Just like with math life becomes more and more complex and there is still truth in the numbers if I were to write a complex integral calculus expression out here and tell you that it is truth without the vantage point of understanding integral calculus you may say no that’s not truth or you don’t know or not if its truth or you might take my word because you trust me and say ok that’s truth.
It is the same thing with complex problems involving something as simple as Minimum Wage but our vantage points are different and of course everyone wants what is best for everyone or the best outcome. Being able to move around a problem and open your eyes from several if not all vantage points is where people will find the best version of the true truth. Being able to do that without taking a bias from emotional connection to a problem or past strong beliefs is very hard to do.

To ask someone to filter FOX news is fine but shouldn’t be asked unless you are equally ready to look at your supplier of your own version of your truths with equal skepticism.

I tried to not voice my opinion without supplying some study material from a different vantage point on the subject to see if someone really wanted to look at a problem from all vantage points. I posted some links to Milton Freedman thoughts on such matters for all to watch. His thoughts and others helped me formulate my version of the truth. If with logic and persuasion someone can disprove my truth I would be more than willing to change my mind. I have on many subjects in my life. People that are open to change in their thought process are normally people that are viewing a problem from the best possible vantage point.
 
fox news is just like any other news it is slanted.

True

only fox news is slanted to the right and other news [abc,cnbc,]is slanted to the wrong,,

if you think they are the only sources of news, you would be wrong

fox news will actually give you the news, it may be slanted, but they will report it.
foxnews only gives you the news they want you to hear. They conveniently leave out the parts they aren't selling. True for some other news stations also.

unlike others who will ignore anything that makes the "poser" or his kind look bad
When you dilute the "news" with your own opinion, and when you choose names and nicknames based on your biases, the facts (if any facts are present) become worthless.

right this minute,,,poser is crying the IRS is underfunded

MAYBE,,If they wernt spending millions on attorneys and BS bonuses
AND trips to vegas to make star trek videos, they would have money
 
Higher wages = higher prices. I don't see how anyone can argue this isn't the case.

No one can force the market to adjust wages up while holding prices level. It just won't happen.

So those minimum wage workers who get a temporary raise will see it dissipate as prices catch up. And everyone who was already making more than minimum will see their buying power lessened unless they receive a proportionate raise, which will be a hard sell since it's not mandated.

The real losers are people like me, retirees who can do little to increase our income as prices shoot up.
 
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