Breaker, Breaker 19...
- Thread starter Rockrz
- Start date
Help Support House Repair Talk:
- Status
I don’t know if I would change out working breakers. Most of them most likely have never been tripped by heat. I have felt a breaker that was tripping time to time and in flipping it on and off had a lighter feel than others and replaced it and solved the problem. So there is something to the feel.
If you want to do something proactive to your old panel you might want to re-torque your connections.
If you want to do something proactive to your old panel you might want to re-torque your connections.
speedy petey
Lic.Electrical Contractor
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2006
- Messages
- 471
- Reaction score
- 44
"I had a maintenance guy tell me there was such a thing as "fail safe" breakers."
As we all know, a maintenance man is the best place to get your electrical advice from.
LOL
As we all know, a maintenance man is the best place to get your electrical advice from.
LOL
speedy petey
Lic.Electrical Contractor
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2006
- Messages
- 471
- Reaction score
- 44
"A homeowner can test the tension on the spring load by turning it on and off to determine if the breaker can mechanically trip."
As Joe has repeatedly stated, things like this will prove NOTHING, but if you're convinced, have at it.
As Joe has repeatedly stated, things like this will prove NOTHING, but if you're convinced, have at it.
LOL... he heard that from an electrical engineer... you know, guys that learn from scientists.
I'm actually seeing companies that claim their breaker is engineered to be "fail safe" in that it detects overages without failing and trips to cut the circuit. Apparently it detects increased current and increased heat.
It's kinda like a fail safe thermostat for your car... yes, those exist as well.
Some breakers don't trip and overheating occurs and houses burn down.
That's what I'd like to avoid.
In that case put in fuses.
These breakers are fairly cheep made plastic contraptions and there is a bunch of movable parts inside. Anything that is mechanical has a signature feel to the mechanism. I have learned over the years to never exclude feel as a trouble shooting tool. That along with sound. I have many times had someone tell me a machine didnt feel right or sound right and it felt and sounded fine to me, only to fail shortly.
These breakers have ether an electro magnet or a bimetal strip in them that reacts to current. And has a linkage that opens contacts. Thats all based around load ramping up and slowly heating or building a pull in the magnet.
If you Crowbar a circuit dead short like a screwdriver jammed between hot and ground the super high inrush current from the line coming into your house has been known to weld contacts together just like melting the end off your screwdriver if it doesnt get welded in place. A fuse wont do that it burns thru and is designed to extinguish its arc.
I dont know all the particulars of a failsafe breaker but if I was thinking of building one maybe I would design in series a back up fuse just slightly higher than the rating of the breaker. Say a 15a breaker backed up with a 20a fuse. Just guessing at that as how it could be done.
speedy petey
Lic.Electrical Contractor
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2006
- Messages
- 471
- Reaction score
- 44
"LOL... he heard that from an electrical engineer... "
LOL, he said maintenance man.
LOL, he said maintenance man.
Yeah, everyone knows that a maintenance man with a few decades of experience is totally clueless about everything... well, that all depends on the person since some are detailed minded and learn a lot to better themselves in their field while others do not.... "L0L"
nealtw
Contractor retired
My guess is they are all fail safe, as they all work much the same way.
This guy has the flow backwards but it is a good explanation.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSh0f94JwaA[/ame]
I was watching an expose on the news saying "Federal Pacific" breakers model "Stab Lock" (made from the 50s thru the 80s) are known to have a very high rate of defectivness, as high as 1 in 4 breakers being being bad.
Federal Pacific was investigated and they advertised and claimed that their breakers pass some testing agency standards (forget the name) that sets standards for electrical products, but they lied and knew their breakers were crap. They went out of bidness.
Now, on this show they had electrical engineers similar with the investigation of the breakers Federal Pacific made and they did say that sometimes it's best to change breakers that are old regardless of who made them... so for those that say you do not, do you know more than these guys? And, if that is your claim, please post scientific evidence or studies that show breakers last forever and they should never be replaced as they age.
Just wanted to give you fellas opportunity to provide something other than your personal opinion on this before I ignore your recommendation in favor of electrical engineers who at this point appear to be much more knowledgeable than those that say it's a waste of time to install new breakers.
I checked my breaker box and they all appear to be original, or at least they are all the same. Mine are made by Zinsco Electrical Products... which according to info I'm seeing online are also known to be defective.
Zinsco electrical equipment is considered obsolete, due to a design flaw in which the circuit breaker's connection to the bus bar becomes loose, causing arcing and subsequent overheating. Long term exposure to this heat can cause the breaker to fuse to the bus bar, making it impossible to remove. Even worse, it can cause the breaker's contacts to fuse together, thus preventing the breaker from tripping even in an overcurrent situation, thereby causing a potential fire hazard.
Aftermarket replacements for the Zinsco breakers are available; however, it may be more cost effective simply to replace the entire panel with a more modern and safer design from another manufacturer (such as Eaton, GE, Siemens, or Square-D), depending on the number of breakers to be replaced. If the bus bar shows signs of corrosion, or if any of the breakers show signs of overheating, the panel should be replaced entirely. Many electricians advocate replacement of the panel in any case, due to its historically poor reliability.
source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinsco
More in depth information concerning Zinsco breakers can be found here:
http://inspectapedia.com/electric/GTE_Sylvania_Kearney_Zinsco_Failure.php
So... looks like the correct call here is for me to tell my landlord... not ask, tell... them they need to cough up some cash and install a new breaker box with some modern breakers that meet today's safety standards.
I knew there was some BS goin around from some who had replied earlier
Federal Pacific was investigated and they advertised and claimed that their breakers pass some testing agency standards (forget the name) that sets standards for electrical products, but they lied and knew their breakers were crap. They went out of bidness.
Now, on this show they had electrical engineers similar with the investigation of the breakers Federal Pacific made and they did say that sometimes it's best to change breakers that are old regardless of who made them... so for those that say you do not, do you know more than these guys? And, if that is your claim, please post scientific evidence or studies that show breakers last forever and they should never be replaced as they age.
Just wanted to give you fellas opportunity to provide something other than your personal opinion on this before I ignore your recommendation in favor of electrical engineers who at this point appear to be much more knowledgeable than those that say it's a waste of time to install new breakers.
I checked my breaker box and they all appear to be original, or at least they are all the same. Mine are made by Zinsco Electrical Products... which according to info I'm seeing online are also known to be defective.
Zinsco electrical equipment is considered obsolete, due to a design flaw in which the circuit breaker's connection to the bus bar becomes loose, causing arcing and subsequent overheating. Long term exposure to this heat can cause the breaker to fuse to the bus bar, making it impossible to remove. Even worse, it can cause the breaker's contacts to fuse together, thus preventing the breaker from tripping even in an overcurrent situation, thereby causing a potential fire hazard.
Aftermarket replacements for the Zinsco breakers are available; however, it may be more cost effective simply to replace the entire panel with a more modern and safer design from another manufacturer (such as Eaton, GE, Siemens, or Square-D), depending on the number of breakers to be replaced. If the bus bar shows signs of corrosion, or if any of the breakers show signs of overheating, the panel should be replaced entirely. Many electricians advocate replacement of the panel in any case, due to its historically poor reliability.
source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinsco
More in depth information concerning Zinsco breakers can be found here:
http://inspectapedia.com/electric/GTE_Sylvania_Kearney_Zinsco_Failure.php
So... looks like the correct call here is for me to tell my landlord... not ask, tell... them they need to cough up some cash and install a new breaker box with some modern breakers that meet today's safety standards.
I knew there was some BS goin around from some who had replied earlier
Last edited:
nealtw
Contractor retired
There are people either the city inspector or a company tasked with that job who will be happy to come to your home and inspect the service, if they find something wrong they will pull the meter until it is brought up to code.
Those people will have the only opinion that counts.
Those people will have the only opinion that counts.
Well, I run my bidness out of the house here and it would be very bad for the electric to be cut from the house suddenly due to some inspection.
So, I'm going to do the smart things and start planning for the breakers, possible the entire breaker box to be replaced on my time... but in the near future.
Once I read from multiple sources that the brand of breakers in the house now are known to fail and are considered obsolete by today's safety standards ... that's all I need to know. I'm done.
So, I'm going to do the smart things and start planning for the breakers, possible the entire breaker box to be replaced on my time... but in the near future.
Once I read from multiple sources that the brand of breakers in the house now are known to fail and are considered obsolete by today's safety standards ... that's all I need to know. I'm done.
Could it be, perhaps, that you are unaware the this source can be edited to portray a desired result?
It is interesting to me, that you reference a handyman and an engineer, yet elect to, because it apparently does not support your preconceive conclusions, discount practical experiences offered you.
FP and ZINSCO, both having suffered their shortcomings are going the way of K & T wiring and fuse blocks.
It's called evolution.
You should absolutely embark upon this tactic, in fact, you should also hold your breath in anticipation.
However, as a precursor, make a complete inventory of all your possessions and place it in a secure bank vault, with the original purchase receipts, AND
your full replacement value Home insurance policy.
Inform the attorney you hire to compose and author this demand letter of your actions.
I knew there was some BS goin around from some who had replied earlier
As a response to a forest gump moment?
Ah yes, another person filled with BS.
Good luck with that, you're going to need it
In particular, where I agreed with your preconception?
nealtw
Contractor retired
I'm sorry, did you say something?
Yer ugly and yo mutha dresses you funny!:
.
I went looking at the write up you linked to and the pictures.
Everything does look scary enough.
In the pictures I did notice that they did not show pictures of whole house fires caused by this, that's not saying it hasn't happened.
So my guess is that the main breaker would have to fail too.
I don't know if there is a safe way to test the breaker for tripping at the right time and heat. I can tell you when I made a mistake and shorted out a circuit the main tripped before the 15 amp breaker. That left me wondering about the 15 amp breaker.
Most of those pictures were showing arching where the attach in the box you could pull them and inspect for that.
I think I might change the main out for a new one and make sure smoke detectors are up to date.
Because time is money, breaker testing is a basic stress test, at what the ambient temp. of the testing facility at the time.
Having worked around several score of Zinsco panels, what I've found is that the load has been increased, without the benefit of having the load balanced, and often the act of balancing the load reduces the frequency of breaker failure, subsequently extending the panels service life.
The associated heat generated also results in a molecular change in the metals composition and it does not return to its original form,(kinda like a cold shower), and it only exacerbates from there.
How many breaker failures have there been?
Has the service been balanced?
To say, "he's got cards he ain't show'n," is an understatement.
Yes, that's the way to go... lets "hope" the faulty breakers don't burn the entire house down.
Any adult with any common sense at all knows that it's better to prevent a potential bad situation before it happens versus cleaning up after it happens.
There is a lot of documentation to be found showing the breakers in my house are known to be faulty and are known to be obsolete when compared to today's safety standards and best practices.
If you're worried about the expense... don't, cause my landlord will pay for it after I have a few electricians come out to look at it (you know, they always recommend replacing old stuff cause they want a payday), and after I show them documentation that these breakers are known to be faulty and are known to be obsolete.
The landlord doesn't want to take the chance of being sued should something bad happen, or be charged with manslaughter should someone die from a house fire after they were told about this.
They own numerous rental properties so they should understand that it's their legal responsibility to make sure their places are safe.
You can't foresee every potential danger in life and prevent bad things before they happen, but this is certainly something that can be fixed easy... so it would be really slow to not be proactive in this situation so simplistic that even a redneck could understand it!
.
Last edited:
nealtw
Contractor retired
I can't say I know enough about breakers to agree or disagree with anything, although I also didn't find much info on how best to deal with fear of a dangerous situation. We don't know if the situation is dangerous but the fear is real.
We always want people to inspect their homes for safety issues and educate themselves on what is safe and what is not.
I don't think I would worry about breaker failure as that is commonly what is said when power no longer is delivered from the breaker. The fear is one being stuck closed that will not turn off the power. To me it seems that is an easy test, if you can turn it off it is not stuck.
- Status
