Can anyone explain to me the thing squared in red

Discussion in 'Electrical and Wiring' started by lleomon38, Nov 1, 2012.

Help Support House Repair Talk by donating using the link above.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Nov 1, 2012 #1

    lleomon38

    lleomon38

    lleomon38

    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am new owner and Since Sandy beat my house up. I have few damage and still learning. There is thing snap from my house. It is part of electric power line from outside. It might be neutral line (no power just ground)?

    Appreciate anyone teach me anything


    Second question is the electric break panel. There are two big thick powerline coming in the the main breakers. should those both have electricity?

    SANY1609.jpg
     
  2. Nov 1, 2012 #2

    Wuzzat?

    Wuzzat?

    Wuzzat?

    Well-Known Member Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,471
    Likes Received:
    175
    The cable strain relief has pulled out from your wall due to horizontal wind force deflecting your Service Entrance cable.
    Apparently the strain relief bolt stripped and the nut and washer fell down inside your attic.

    If this is not fixed your SE cable will have a short life. Copper cannot stand much tension
    so the steel messenger cable that fastens to this anchor
    carries the bulk of the tensile force.

    If your AHJ permits it, get a heftier strain relief from an electrical supply house and have it fastened properly on a non-rainy day by someone who knows what they are doing
    or
    who is not afraid of insulated wires carrying 240V while working on a ladder.

    If the strain relief bolt is not stripped
    you can get a 1" long stainless steel or galvanized bolt connector that has female threads inside
    and use this to couple the strain relief bolt to another bolt fed from the inside of your house.
    That way you don't have to mess with the messenger cable.

    There should be some sag in the cable when you're done. Look at other undamaged houses to see how much sag in how much distance the electricians have put in these cables.

    I've re-anchored the strain relief bracket on my 50 YO house with two lag screws; it was starting to pull off and fortunately I noticed it while pulling ivy off the walls.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
    kok328 and CallMeVilla like this.
  3. Nov 1, 2012 #3

    kok328

    kok328

    kok328

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,797
    Likes Received:
    264
    yes, the two large black wires coming into the main breaker inside the panel should each have 120VAC to ground and 240VAC between them.
     
  4. Nov 2, 2012 #4

    Wuzzat?

    Wuzzat?

    Wuzzat?

    Well-Known Member Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,471
    Likes Received:
    175
    Now it kind of looks like the messenger cable is also the neutral conductor.

    And look at the differences in cable ODs between what goes into the house and what comes from the utility pole. The pole wires must be 1/3rd the diameter of the larger cables on the left. I'd guess the nominal 240 volts must drop quite a bit when all the 240v house appliances are on.

    Here's pics of bolt to bolt fasteners.

    http://www.google.com/imgres?q="thr...=139&tbnw=209&start=0&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,i:92

    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...IhOTULDaBKnO0QHcroGYBA&ved=0CCoQ9QEwAw&dur=54

    Use a threaded rod going into the house because the length required is probably unknown. The rod should go through roof structural members, not like how they appear to have done it in your photo.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2012
  5. Nov 2, 2012 #5

    nealtw

    nealtw

    nealtw

    Contractor retired

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2010
    Messages:
    24,082
    Likes Received:
    3,174
    I think you will find that is area is 2 ft below the attic space and the missing part was screwed in to sheeting behind the siding and would be better if it was screwed into the stud at the corner of the building. No?
     
  6. Nov 2, 2012 #6

    lleomon38

    lleomon38

    lleomon38

    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks all

    How much (range/estimate) to hire a electrician contractor for this task?
    And is angie's list good for finding them?

    Does house insurance cover this? From natural storm Sandy......

    Thanks again
     
  7. Nov 2, 2012 #7

    nealtw

    nealtw

    nealtw

    Contractor retired

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2010
    Messages:
    24,082
    Likes Received:
    3,174
    It likely would not cost as much as your deductable. Good luck finding a contractor right now.
     
  8. Nov 2, 2012 #8

    lleomon38

    lleomon38

    lleomon38

    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am thinking claiming insurance because this is not the only damage. I have to go thru the insurance paper to get to know the detail. Here is two more pictures

    1. Chimney cap blow off.
    2. Vinyl (small issue, I can fix it myself)

    photo.jpg

    SANY1612.jpg
     
  9. Nov 2, 2012 #9

    nealtw

    nealtw

    nealtw

    Contractor retired

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2010
    Messages:
    24,082
    Likes Received:
    3,174
    Go over it with your broker, you also want to consider what it does to your premium in the future.
     
  10. Nov 2, 2012 #10

    JoeD

    JoeD

    JoeD

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2006
    Messages:
    1,558
    Likes Received:
    282
    Inspect your roof. The chimney cap could have damaged it when it blew off.
     
  11. Nov 3, 2012 #11

    speedy petey

    speedy petey

    speedy petey

    Lic.Electrical Contractor

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Messages:
    470
    Likes Received:
    44
    That is a lag insulator. There was no nut and washer. That was screwed into the corner post of the house. It's pretty easy to see.



    The drop is super light fro what I can see and is not damaging the SE cable, but yes,this should be fixed as soon as possible.




    The messenger is always the neutral.



    The drop from the street is typically much smaller than the service entrance. POCO's fly by their own rules and run what they see fit. Many times after a service upgrade they simply leave the existing drop. Unless of course the actual load has increased substantially.
    I'm not sure what the 240v appliances have to do with it. :confused:
     
  12. Nov 3, 2012 #12

    Wuzzat?

    Wuzzat?

    Wuzzat?

    Well-Known Member Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,471
    Likes Received:
    175
    >Skinny drop = small CMs = high resistance = lower voltage available at the load center when all your appliances are on.
    At my load center, a 20A, 240v load drops my voltage by 0.4v so a 200A, 240v load should drop my nominal 240v by ~4v, and then you've got the branch circuit drops.

    Thanks for your info. This is not easily found on the Web.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2012
  13. Nov 3, 2012 #13

    Wuzzat?

    Wuzzat?

    Wuzzat?

    Well-Known Member Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,471
    Likes Received:
    175
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
     
  14. Nov 3, 2012 #14

    speedy petey

    speedy petey

    speedy petey

    Lic.Electrical Contractor

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Messages:
    470
    Likes Received:
    44
    And since this is almost certainly on a finished interior wall HOW do you propose to do this??? Cut the wall open I assume?
    A lag insulator is MORE than strong enough for this drop.


    HARDLY!
    That happened because something either fell on the line, or fell on a line down the way, tensioning the wires, pulling the drop out. Or the pole itself broke.
    Wind alone DID NOT do that. Never in a million years.


    Yes. No. Yes.
    It's not just AL. It is an ACSR messenger. It is an AL conductor with a hardened steel single strand in the center. It is incredibly strong, and super hard to cut through.


    240v loads cause MUCH less VD than 120V loads. 1/4 if I am not mistaken. That was my point.
    Again, it is the POCO's prerogative to replace the drop. It is NOT mandatory.
     
  15. Nov 4, 2012 #15

    Wuzzat?

    Wuzzat?

    Wuzzat?

    Well-Known Member Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,471
    Likes Received:
    175
    Cut the wall open I assume?
    >If you have to, then use a drywall hot patch to fix the hole.

    A lag insulator is MORE than strong enough for this drop.
    >It wasn't this time.

    HARDLY!
    That happened because something either fell on the line, or fell on a line down the way, tensioning the wires, pulling the drop out. Or the pole itself broke.
    Wind alone DID NOT do that. Never in a million years.
    >I stand corrected, maybe. My first search for wind force on cables came up with one hit that I couldn't open. I'll be back on this one.

    http://archive.ericsson.net/service/internet/picov/get?DocNo=23/28701-FGC101683&Lang=EN
    Pg 18, 2000 newtons = 450 lbs. for a 90 meter span.
    For a 9 meter span it's maybe 45 lbs.
    I say you be right! :)

    Yes. No. Yes.
    It's not just AL. It is an ACSR messenger. It is an AL conductor with a hardened steel single strand in the center. It is incredibly strong, and super hard to cut through.
    >Thanks, I've seen that conductor mentioned elsewhere.

    240v loads cause MUCH less VD than 120V loads. 1/4 if I am not mistaken. That was my point.
    >Only for equal wattage. Most 240v appliances are higher wattage.

    Again, it is the POCO's prerogative to replace the drop. It is NOT mandatory.
    >So if the HO asks for 200A service, he gets it, but PoCo is not compelled to provide that service to the house.
    I guess the electrician could run a test and say what max service the homeowner could benefit from, if PoCo doesn't cooperate.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2012
  16. Nov 4, 2012 #16

    speedy petey

    speedy petey

    speedy petey

    Lic.Electrical Contractor

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Messages:
    470
    Likes Received:
    44
    Yeah, because a 20,000lb branch probably fell across the line. :rolleyes:
    I've seen it MANY times, and I'd much rather have the insulator pull out like that that have the whole corner of the house pulled down (which I have also seen).



    The wattage has NOTHING to do with it. 240V has 1/4 the voltage drop of 120V.



    They ARE providing that service to the house. What is your limiting factor for this? Are you aware of the amperage ratings for conductors in free air? Are you aware that POCO's DO NOT have to follow the NEC?
    What POSSIBLE test would/could an electrician run to see what a homeowner could benefit from?????? Connect up a 48,000 watt heater?
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2012
  17. Nov 4, 2012 #17

    Wuzzat?

    Wuzzat?

    Wuzzat?

    Well-Known Member Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,471
    Likes Received:
    175
    A 500 cu. ft. tree branch?

    This thread is getting less productive!!!!!!!!!

    Here's an idea that PoCo may not like if they are paying for it!!!!!!!!

    At the pole, a pull-out connector for each hot lead and one high force pull-out connector for the messenger. The HO's strain relief pull-out force must be higher than PoCo's connectors but not so high that chunks of the house follow the cable down.

    That way if a very heavy branch lands on the wire it will be unpowered as it falls to the ground.

    With all due respect I have a book recommendation for you. . .
    http://www.amazon.com/On-Being-Certain-Believing-Right/dp/B008SLU5Z8

    ". . .certainty is a mental sensation, rather than evidence of fact."

    Yeah, you could rent & connect a constant current, constant power or constant resistance load. These first two would need electronics of some kind.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2012
  18. Nov 4, 2012 #18

    lleomon38

    lleomon38

    lleomon38

    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am not the electrician. But here is the results

    we call national grid few times and finally they came over. (Thanks for their hard work also, I talked to them and they work 16 hour per day).

    So, first, they inspect the cable (meter). And they screw back the Lap insulator or neutral conductor (I am not sure but they screwed it back to the house).

    And them inspect the cable from the Pole to my house. From few electrical sparks and they able to fixed it. Guess something from the Pole itself.

    Since I don't know anything. But I would like at least provide what they did there and learn more.

    Again, thanks for all the follow up and information you guys provided. I learn a lot there
     
  19. Nov 4, 2012 #19

    Wuzzat?

    Wuzzat?

    Wuzzat?

    Well-Known Member Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,471
    Likes Received:
    175
    You have to fix the hole in your house.
     
  20. Nov 4, 2012 #20

    speedy petey

    speedy petey

    speedy petey

    Lic.Electrical Contractor

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Messages:
    470
    Likes Received:
    44
    So you are suggesting I am only correct in my head, but I believe I am right which is why I keep saying it??? You cannot be serious.

    What is your area of expertise? Is it electrical contracting? Have you been at it for over 25 years?
    When you can answer yes to the second two questions let me know. Until then I will stick to KNOWING I am right on this one. You can have your armchair contracting.

    In fact, looking back on all the posts, there may be a book for you out there called "Continually Trying To Prove Folks Wrong: An Effort In Futility". Hell, you may even be the author.


    And NO, no normal electrician, or any other kind of electrician, is going to rent a 50kW load to load test a 200A service. Not in the real world at least.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page