Electrical circuit keeps dying

[jamescity1989]

kok328 - The GFCI/AFCI receptacle did not burn out. This receptacle replaced a regular receptacle that burned out.

Jamecity1989: The new GFCI/AFCI receptacle is not the problem here in my opinion. As I said we have to determine what caused the original receptacle to burn out. Now that this new AFCI/GFCI tripped and won't reset tells us that the feed to it lost power. What is on this circuit before the AFCI/GFCI receptacle. This is where the problem may be.


We are only talking about one dual function AFCI/GFCI receptacle at this time. If this receptacle will not reset this more than likely means either it was wired incorrectly (the way he describes he wired it seems corret) or there is no power going to the GFCI/AFCI receptacle. Tossing all GFCIs receptacles will not solve this issue.

The issue is the original receptacle burned out which means there is an issue with the circuit or the original receptacle.

Jamescity replacing the original burned out receptacle with this AFCI/GFCI receptacle will not necessarily make this circuit safer if there is a problem with the circuit prior to the location of the AFCI/GFCI receptacle. We need to first determine what caused the original regular receptacle to burn out.

Jamescity you say you have a VOM. Do you know how to use it?
First shut off the breaker to this circuit. Disconnect the wires going to the line side of the GFCI/AFCI receptacle. Pull the wires apart from each other so they do not touch. Turn the breaker back on and record the readings of these wires. Tell us what hot to neutral, hot to ground and ground to neutral are in Volts. This will be the starting point. We need to know if 120volts are being feed to the AFCI/GFCi receptacle on the line side of this receptacle and then take it from there. If you don't have 120v on the wires connected to the line side of the AFCI/GFCI receptacle then it will not reset. Also double check carefully by looking at the back of the AFCI/GFCI receptacle to be sure you are placing the incoming power wires to the line side and the outgoing wires to the load side.

Let's take this one step at a time and not start throwing things away thinking they are bad or replacing the AFCI/GFCI receptacle thinking it is bad. They are pricey. Changing the other receptacles to a higher grade is acceptable but it would be best to first before fiddling with other receptacles etc taht we determine what caused this receptacle to burn up. By making all of these changes we are complicating how we can solve this issue. Don't make changes yet.

Jamescity you say you are good with computers. I used to be an IT analyst and computer programmer. We know that the last think you do when attempting to troubleshoot a computer problem or software problem is to go in an make multiple changes at one time. Doing this you will not know what caused what. Think of this the same way. One change or troubleshoot step at a time only. The more changes you put in the mix the more difficult it will be to find the problem. Load multiple programs on a computer and you find you have problems you won't know what program caused the problems. Load one at a time and test it and then you will see what program caused the problem.

On the circuit before the af/gf receptacle is normally her tv printer and cable box and roku which were all plugged into a surge protector. When i visually inspected the receptacle it had no signs of any arcing.

The first the original receptacle died before we replaced it with the afci gfci outlet was due to an old phone charger cable and box.

 

[jamescity1989]

kok328 - The GFCI/AFCI receptacle did not burn out. This receptacle replaced a regular receptacle that burned out.

Jamecity1989: The new GFCI/AFCI receptacle is not the problem here in my opinion. As I said we have to determine what caused the original receptacle to burn out. Now that this new AFCI/GFCI tripped and won't reset tells us that the feed to it lost power. What is on this circuit before the AFCI/GFCI receptacle. This is where the problem may be.


We are only talking about one dual function AFCI/GFCI receptacle at this time. If this receptacle will not reset this more than likely means either it was wired incorrectly (the way he describes he wired it seems corret) or there is no power going to the GFCI/AFCI receptacle. Tossing all GFCIs receptacles will not solve this issue.

The issue is the original receptacle burned out which means there is an issue with the circuit or the original receptacle.

Jamescity replacing the original burned out receptacle with this AFCI/GFCI receptacle will not necessarily make this circuit safer if there is a problem with the circuit prior to the location of the AFCI/GFCI receptacle. We need to first determine what caused the original regular receptacle to burn out.

Jamescity you say you have a VOM. Do you know how to use it?
First shut off the breaker to this circuit. Disconnect the wires going to the line side of the GFCI/AFCI receptacle. Pull the wires apart from each other so they do not touch. Turn the breaker back on and record the readings of these wires. Tell us what hot to neutral, hot to ground and ground to neutral are in Volts. This will be the starting point. We need to know if 120volts are being feed to the AFCI/GFCi receptacle on the line side of this receptacle and then take it from there. If you don't have 120v on the wires connected to the line side of the AFCI/GFCI receptacle then it will not reset. Also double check carefully by looking at the back of the AFCI/GFCI receptacle to be sure you are placing the incoming power wires to the line side and the outgoing wires to the load side.

Let's take this one step at a time and not start throwing things away thinking they are bad or replacing the AFCI/GFCI receptacle thinking it is bad. They are pricey. Changing the other receptacles to a higher grade is acceptable but it would be best to first before fiddling with other receptacles etc taht we determine what caused this receptacle to burn up. By making all of these changes we are complicating how we can solve this issue. Don't make changes yet.

Jamescity you say you are good with computers. I used to be an IT analyst and computer programmer. We know that the last think you do when attempting to troubleshoot a computer problem or software problem is to go in an make multiple changes at one time. Doing this you will not know what caused what. Think of this the same way. One change or troubleshoot step at a time only. The more changes you put in the mix the more difficult it will be to find the problem. Load multiple programs on a computer and you find you have problems you won't know what program caused the problems. Load one at a time and test it and then you will see what program caused the problem.

So I checked the line wires going into the receptacle and got no voltage at all. Then I checked the receptacle before that one and it has a reading of less than 2 volts. My VOM was set to AC of course so I don't know what comes next.

 

[user 4883]

So I checked the line wires going into the receptacle and got no voltage at all. Then I checked the receptacle before that one and it has a reading of less than 2 volts. My VOM was set to AC of course so I don't know what comes next.

Next you go to the breaker that feeds that circuit and see if the breaker is tripped and/or has power when ON.

 

[Snoonyb]

Determining if the breaker is at fault, will require you to remove the cover, the dead front panel, too expose the internal components of the service panel.

Having identified the breaker, and removing the dead front panel, you see screws securing conductors to the breakers. With your VOM set for AC voltage and at a scale above 240V , place the NEG. lead on either the service box, grnd. buss bar or the neutral buss bar, and the positive lead to the screw of the identified breaker, and with the breaker in the on position, you should read 110+ volts. If you do not read voltage, the breaker is faulty and needs replaces.

An interesting juxtaposition. I had thought that I had typed "needs to be replaced". Yay whoever.

 

[jamescity1989]

Determining if the breaker is at fault, will require you to remove the cover, the dead front panel, too expose the internal components of the service panel.

Having identified the breaker, and removing the dead front panel, you see screws securing conductors to the breakers. With your VOM set for AC voltage and at a scale above 240V , place the NEG. lead on either the service box, grnd. buss bar or the neutral buss bar, and the positive lead to the screw of the identified breaker, and with the breaker in the on position, you should read 110+ volts. If you do not read voltage, the breaker is faulty and needs replaces.

An interesting juxtaposition. I had thought that I had typed "needs to be replaced". Yay whoever.

I bought a new breaker when i bought that new afci/gfci the other day. I put it in before i wired in the new receptacle. Could it still be bad though?

 

[Snoonyb]

Did you check the breaker for operation, though?

 

[jamescity1989]

Well one switch on it powers the lights to the rooms with those receptacles and wires I've been testing and 1 bathroom. All the lights from it work perfectly. So I'm assuming its operable.

 

[Snoonyb]

Well, if you are sure that, that is the breaker that controls them, that's a good guess.

 

[jamescity1989]

Well, if you are sure that, that is the breaker that controls them, that's a good guess.

I only know that because I have tested and marked each outlet that wasnt already labeled in my breaker panel so I'll know what each controls

 

[user 4883]

Take your VOM back to the outlet that was showing 2V and recheck it, this time between hot and ground.

 

[Snoonyb]

At this point, I'd shut the breaker off, then find the recep. that has just two cond. + a grnd, which would signify, that, that is the last recep. in the chain, disconnect just the two conds, and join them in a wire-nut. Move to the next, suspected, recep. in the chain. There should be 4 or more cond. in the box.
Verify that there in no voltage present. Disconnect the cond., and check for continuity. Continue the process until you reach a stating point, which is the first place in the circuit that, consistency has power, with the breaker on.

 

[jamescity1989]

Ok so the past two days I have been working alot so I haven't had time to do anything until this morning. So I went to go check the wire for voltage again and when I cut the breaker back on everything worked fine. So I plugged a lamp in to check for power and it worked. My question is why after letting it sit for a few days did it decide to start working again?

*Update* Died out again when she plugged in her ac (the one I thought she threw out) and the afci/gfci won't reset so installed new industrial receptacle still no power again. I did read somewhere online that if the lines get hot they have to cool off before working again possibly. The AC ran for about 2-3 mins prior to killing the circuit again.

 

[bud16415]

I think @kok328 was alluding to your problem in post number 30.



I think he thinks you have a bad common on that circuit and testing from the black hot wire to the bare copper ground will perhaps show that you do have voltage there.



If the path of the white common is not fully connected it will act like what you are seeing.

Do the test he asked for and report back.

 

[afjes_2016]

Hey Bud, what is a "White common"? Do you mean "neutral"?

I'm still thinking that the problem is the receptacle prior to the one that burned out. If this one was tested which I see it was then it should be pulled out and replaced. If it was pulled out and replaced and the rest of the receptacles have been replaced on this circuit and the problem persists then I would highly suggest that an electrcian come in and do some troubleshooting.

Jamescity
"I did read somewhere online that if the lines get hot they have to cool off before working again possibly. "
This is not good. Take the AC and put it off to the side or take it with you to your house until the issue with the circuit is resolved. Don't let her keep using it. AT this point we don't know what is causing the problems. Until you do know I would not be even using the circuit since a receptacle burned up. Having faith in this particular situation in a AFCI/GFCI receptacle is not what I would do now if you continue to utilize this circuit and not know what is burning up receptacles.

 

[bud16415]

Hey Bud, what is a "White common"? Do you mean "neutral"?

Color me old school. Back in the day the term was common was common to use but teachings now call it neutral. Just as Ohm’s law changed from E=IR to V=IR somewhere along my timeline.

I think someplace in the thread the OP was measuring a few volts when the circuit was mostly open and that’s kind of a clue that there could be a poor connected neutral in the path. The intermittent working and killing it when a heavy draw is added also seems to follow that line of logic. It is an easy check to make to see if the hot is really hot or not.

 

[Eddie_T]

Color me old school. Back in the day the term was common was common to use but teachings now call it neutral. Just as Ohm’s law changed from E=IR to V=IR somewhere along my timeline.

I think someplace in the thread the OP was measuring a few volts when the circuit was mostly open and that’s kind of a clue that there could be a poor connected neutral in the path. The intermittent working and killing it when a heavy draw is added also seems to follow that line of logic. It is an easy check to make to see if the hot is really hot or not.

Same here, I still hear common and neutral used interchangeably.

One thing that continually bugs me is calling our electrical supply split-phase when in reality it's single phase with a center tapped transformer and grounded neutral.

The thing I find hardest in trying to help someone with electrical is trying to get them to follow troubleshooting steps as laid out for them. I mean no disrespect as I have a best friend that I finally just have to go over and do it myself.

 

[jamescity1989]

I think @kok328 was alluding to your problem in post number 30.



I think he thinks you have a bad common on that circuit and testing from the black hot wire to the bare copper ground will perhaps show that you do have voltage there.



If the path of the white common is not fully connected it will act like what you are seeing.

Do the test he asked for and report back.

So I retested that receptacle (closest to panel) this time with the receptacle installed and with just bare wires. I got nothing from it on either reading. What I did notice was when I touched the ground with the VOM that is the only wire giving out anything which was the .8 to 1v reading. When I tested hot to ground still got the same reading of the .8 to 1v. Same with neutral to ground. Hot to neutral shows no voltage. So it's like the only little voltage it is putting out is coming from the ground wire itself.

I went back and tested the breaker again and it's putting out 125v.

Same here, I still hear common and neutral used interchangeably.

One thing that continually bugs me is calling our electrical supply split-phase when in reality it's single phase with a center tapped transformer and grounded neutral.

The thing I find hardest in trying to help someone with electrical is trying to get them to follow troubleshooting steps as laid out for them. I mean no disrespect as I have a best friend that I finally just have to go over and do it myself.

Sadly I'm one of those people I don't understand the technical terms so I end up having to google what a term means or how to do that test unless it's "dumbed down" in a sense.

 

[afjes_2016]

I hear you Bud. I kind of figured that was what you meant by common. I try to stay with the terminology that the OP may find in their research on the Net which will hopefully make things easier for them.

I agree it sounds like a missing neutral but on the other hand since basically nothing hot to ground (phantom maybe) then I would think no hot.

Jamescity, since you are reading 120v at the breaker and nothing at this receptacle are you sure there is not another receptacle before this one or are you sure there is not a junction box between this receptacle and the breaker panel. Also, this receptacle you are getting the readings from are these wires to the receptacle coming directly into the box and then into the receptacle or are there wire nuts in this box? If there are wire nuts in this box and these are jumper wires it is possible there is a loose connection in one of the nuts.

So I retested that receptacle (closest to panel) this time with the receptacle installed and with just bare wires.

I am confused here James. The receptacle is installed but you have bare wires. What do you mean by this please. I only ask so I have a better understanding of your troubleshooting method.

 

[jamescity1989]

Jamescity, since you are reading 120v at the breaker and nothing at this receptacle are you sure there is not another receptacle before this one or are you sure there is not a junction box between this receptacle and the breaker panel. Also, this receptacle you are getting the readings from are these wires to the receptacle coming directly into the box and then into the receptacle or are there wire nuts in this box? If there are wire nuts in this box and these are jumper wires it is possible there is a loose connection in one of the nuts.

Yea I'm beginning to think I'm missing something somewhere. I've looked everywhere prior to that socket closest to the panel and all the sockets that are before it are on completely different circuits as they work. Which I just found the breaker for them.

Jamescity, since you are reading 120v at the breaker and nothing at this receptacle are you sure there is not another receptacle before this one or are you sure there is not a junction box between this receptacle and the breaker panel. Also, this receptacle you are getting the readings from are these wires to the receptacle coming directly into the box and then into the receptacle or are there wire nuts in this box? If there are wire nuts in this box and these are jumper wires it is possible there is a loose connection in one of the nuts.


I am confused here James. The receptacle is installed but you have bare wires. What do you mean by this please. I only ask so I have a better understanding of your troubleshooting method.

By bare wire I meant I tested it with the receptacle installed and then I tested it without the receptacle just bare wires from the wall.

I am in the process of retracing everything. There is another socket that I have to check to see if it is the first socket because it's possible that I am looking at this backward. Is their any way to identify the first receptacle from the others? Most of them have the 4 wire and ground setup to it except the last one which has 2 wires and a ground.

 

[bud16415]

When you see 4 wires and a ground you are seeing 2 wires a black and white feeding the outlet and 2 wires a black and a white continuing the circuit being fed from the feeder pair. The last outlet of the circuit will just have the pair feeding it power.



Some people wire the continuing pair off the extra two screws on the outlet and some people wire them together in the box with wire nuts and then add 2 short pigtails (short B&W wires) to the outlet. The better method is the pigtail method IMO but both work.

There are also in some outlets holes in the back called back stabs that wires can be attached to by just sticking the wire in the hole. IMO this is the worst way to attach an outlet and should not be used. If you have backstabs and they were used to continue the run they could well be your problem. Just something to be looking out for.