Need help installing dual function CAFCI & GFCI breakers

[jbaugh]

Recently my electrical box and all of its breakers was replaced because of age related problems. Most of the breakers are "standard" 20 AMP breakers. I would like to replace two of these breakers with dual function CAFI & GFCI breakers to protect the circuits they are associated with. I have researched and studied YouTube videos and I have a good understanding of how this is done. I know I will have to trace and identify the neutral to each of the breakers to be replaced. I am concerned about how difficult this will be. I have experience replacing and installing switches and outlets. But I have no experience working behind the electrical panel. When I remove the panel how likely is it that I can easily identify the appropriate neutrals on the neutral bar? Any hints or tricks? Or will this be a no-brainer? Thanks.
John

 

[Snoonyb]

WELCOME.
Actually It's pretty straight forward, you remove the dead front panel and the breakers and the individual conductors, and their entry points will be apparent. Tracing the conductor from the breaker to its entry point, you will find the conductors grouped in a romex jacket, from there you trace the white conductor to the neutral buss bar.

 

[afjes_2016]

Have you ever worked in a panel before?
If you do not have a disconnect that is before this panel be aware (in case you don't know) that just shutting off the main breaker on this panel with not de-energize the conductors leading into the panel to the main breaker. Those will remain hot.

Also, if there are presently any GFCI receptacles on either of the circuits that you are putting dual breakers in you should replace those GFCI receptacles/outlets and install regular receptacles/outlets. This will lessen the chance of random tripping of either the breaker or GFCI receptacles/outlets.
If this was a very recent panel replacement (and depending on the code cycle of your local jurisdiction) I am surprised that you did not have to install at least AFCI breakers on most of the circuits.
I agree with snoonnyb: Trace the hot wire going to the breaker back to the entry point, find the neutral, trace that back to the neutral bar and remove it and place it on the breaker with the matching hot wire.

The other thing is do you know if the panel is a plug-on neutral panel or not?

 

[jbaugh]

WELCOME.
Actually It's pretty straight forward, you remove the dead front panel and the breakers and the individual conductors, and their entry points will be apparent. Tracing the conductor from the breaker to its entry point, you will find the conductors grouped in a romex jacket, from there you trace the white conductor to the neutral buss bar.

Thank you so much for your encouraging reply! I had just about talked myself out of proceeding with this project. Knowing that this should be straightforward, I think I will give it a go.

 

[jbaugh]

Have you ever worked in a panel before?
If you do not have a disconnect that is before this panel be aware (in case you don't know) that just shutting off the main breaker on this panel with not de-energize the conductors leading into the panel to the main breaker. Those will remain hot.

Also, if there are presently any GFCI receptacles on either of the circuits that you are putting dual breakers in you should replace those GFCI receptacles/outlets and install regular receptacles/outlets. This will lessen the chance of random tripping of either the breaker or GFCI receptacles/outlets.
If this was a very recent panel replacement (and depending on the code cycle of your local jurisdiction) I am surprised that you did not have to install at least AFCI breakers on most of the circuits.
I agree with snoonnyb: Trace the hot wire going to the breaker back to the entry point, find the neutral, trace that back to the neutral bar and remove it and place it on the breaker with the matching hot wire.

The other thing is do you know if the panel is a plug-on neutral panel or not?

Excellent points! I have never worked behind a panel. There is a main shut off on the exterior of my garage, separate from the breaker panel. In addition there is a switch on the transfer box that allows me to disconnect for using my backup generator. Yes, I recently installed a GFI outlet on an outlet on one of the circuits. I’ll have to switch it out. I was too naive to ask the right questions of the electrician that installed this new box about 3 weeks ago. I was never offered the option of dual function breakers. This house is more than 40 years old. The only GFCI protection it had was a single GFCI breaker serving three bathrooms on two floor levels. There are 4 exterior outlets with no protection. I’m in the process of securing them with GFCI outlets. According to the specs I found online for my new SquareD box it is supposed to be a plug in neutral unit.

 

[jbaugh]

Big problem!

Excellent points! I have never worked behind a panel. There is a main shut off on the exterior of my garage, separate from the breaker panel. In addition there is a switch on the transfer box that allows me to disconnect for using my backup generator. Yes, I recently installed a GFI outlet on an outlet on one of the circuits. I’ll have to switch it out. I was too naive to ask the right questions of the electrician that installed this new box about 3 weeks ago. I was never offered the option of dual function breakers. This house is more than 40 years old. The only GFCI protection it had was a single GFCI breaker serving three bathrooms on two floor levels. There are 4 exterior outlets with no protection. I’m in the process of securing them with GFCI outlets. According to the specs I found online for my new SquareD box it is supposed to be a plug in neutral unit.

Big problem! I took the panel cover off. EVERY neutral in the box has been shortened such that they barely reach the upper part of the neutral bar. No slack whatsoever. I would need at least 6 more inches of neutral wire to reach the new breaker. No way to add any CAFCI or GFCI breaker to the box. What are my options now. See photo.

 

[jbaugh]

Big problem!

Big problem! I took the panel cover off. EVERY neutral in the box has been shortened such that they barely reach the upper part of the neutral bar. No slack whatsoever. I would need at least 6 more inches of neutral wire to reach the new breaker. No way to add any CAFCI or GFCI breaker to the box. What are my options now. See photo.

Can I use Wago devices to splice and lengthen neutral wires in the man panel?

 

[afjes_2016]

Yes, you may extend the neutrals in the panel to reach where you need to place them. You can use any splicing device, wire nuts, Wago etc to do this. Be sure to use the same gauge wire that you are extending for the extension wire. Example: if you are extending a 12 gauge wire use a 12 gauge wire as the extension etc.

 

[mabloodhound]

Wago's are an excellent choice

 

[PJB12]

A word of caution: Check each conductor for nicks when you strip it. I've seen many times when people accidentally nick the conductor and it breaks off later. The strippers with size holes or an adjustable stop help, but are not fool proof.


When one sees Waygo connectors in the store or wholesaler, they are usually "Wall-Nut" where the conductors enter the same side.

In case your gutter is crowded and you want an easy in-line connection, you can get in-line lever type by Waygo. You'd get part # 221-401 for 20 to 12 AWG wire. (Acceptable with solid or stranded or one of each)

Butt Connectors are another in-line option, but you need the crimp tool and connectors approved for solid wire.

Paul
PS: I've used Waygo brand connectors of many types since they were first approved. No failures yet- solid or stranded.

 

[dsteinhorn]

Most important for us 'amateur' electricians is to kill the feed to the panel as far away from where you are working as possible. I have added subpanels, new circuits, and even put in larger service panels but I always respect the disconnect and kill the hot feed. If the disconnect is in the main panel, just approach it with heightened respect. My other rule of thumb to working in a panel where the main feed is hot is to NOT use metal screwdrivers or non-insulated tools, since I find that I invariably touch something inside the panel I don't intend to touch. Then, I thank my lucky stars that the feed is shut off.

 

[jbaugh]

I can’t adequately express my appreciation for all of the help and suggestions I have received from members of this forum! I have inline Wagos from earlier work on switches and receptacles.

My only remaining concern relates to a comment I received from a retired electrician. He strongly advised against this DIY project. He seemed to infer that my insurance company might deny coverage in the event of an electrical fire or other damage if I do this work myself. Is this a legitimate concern?
John

 

[dsteinhorn]

That may be a legitimate concern, BUT I will wager that most electricians do not pull a permit to replace a circuit breaker or add CAFI & GFCI breakers. Two years ago, I pulled a permit to run a 90 amp subpanel from my house to my garage. This was the second subpanel I have installed in my own homes and find it a satisfying project that saves hundreds of dollars. I ran the large conduit according to code, discussed it twice with the inspector, and pulled the four god-awful heavy 2-guage conductors through the conduit, connected to the new subpanel, and then I hired an "off duty" electrician to confirm my work. After he gave it the nod, I had the inspector come and sign off on it. Inspectors often look at only isolated parts of the job and may not look at all the details on both ends and in-between. It was all up to code but I knew that I would need the permit closed to sell the house in the future. I do not think your small project would create a problem with either insurance or a future sale. THe subpanel also coincided with a commercial contractor installing solar, so the panel got a lot of "inspecting"

 

[afjes_2016]

then I hired an "off duty" electrician to confirm my work. After he gave it the nod,

I would never have done this especially for a panel install by a home owner. I would not put my liability insurance on this line for work I did not perform myself. Even if it was another electrician;s work that they did not complete.

I find it odd that an electrician that could basically only charge a nominal fee to inspect someone's work would consider that fee reasonable to put their liability insurance on the line.

 

[dsteinhorn]

I would never have done this especially for a panel install by a home owner. I would not put my liability insurance on this line for work I did not perform myself. Even if it was another electrician;s work that they did not complete.

I find it odd that an electrician that could basically only charge a nominal fee to inspect someone's work would consider that fee reasonable to put their liability insurance on the line.

I do not argue your point at all. As a licensed professional, you have a standard you must adhere to. As an educated (electrical engineer) home owner, saving money for a straight-forward job is important too. Homeowner and buyer beware, for sure!
With all respect to you, there are a lot of electricians who do slipshod work that gets passed by careless inspectors. My son's apartment in Boston had multiple heavy draw appliances wired to a single 15 am circuit in the kitchen of a remodeled building. The electrician who examined my job was happy to make a nice sum for 30 minutes work and saved me a bunch.

 

[PJB12]

My only remaining concern relates to a comment I received from a retired electrician. He strongly advised against this DIY project. He seemed to infer that my insurance company might deny coverage in the event of an electrical fire or other damage if I do this work myself. Is this a legitimate concern?
John

Your project is in a "Grey Area". It's sort of a repair, thus no licensed electrician is required. But, it is also an upgrade, where a permit will be required. In my locality, it would be classified as a repair.

Safest Plan:
You can obtain an inexpensive Homeowner's Permit in most jurisdictions. You will do the work and an inspector that the local building department employs or contracts will check your project and issue you a "green tag". This way, you not only have a second opinion that the work was done properly, but your insurance company cannot object.

Another bonus is that sometimes the inspector may notice something unrelated that should be corrected. Unless there is imminent danger, she can't make you do anything, just suggest. (Free education)

Paul

PS: Don't hire any electrician who checks your work for money and uses his/her license for permitting and inspections. That's shady practice- and illegal. Suppose there is a fire. How quickly do you figure the electrician is going to bail out on you?

There are a lot of permit getting "License Renters" around here.They steal work from the legitimate local tradespeople and contractors who spent years learning their trade, going to update class, paying union dues, buying equipment and insurance, etc. (And, as Afjes_2016 discussed in #14, it's a really stupid move.) When I did inspections in the commercial-industrial-hospital division, I'd see tons of license rental jobs in commercial work. One can spot them a mile away.

Having an acquaintance look at your work informally & for free is a good idea. You get to learn good stuff. I do this often for family & friends.
Note that Do-It-Yourself is not stealing work, just good economics & a hopefully fun learning experience.)

 

[Snoonyb]

I do not argue your point at all. As a licensed professional, you have a standard you must adhere to. As an educated (electrical engineer) home owner, saving money for a straight-forward job is important too. Homeowner and buyer beware, for sure!
With all respect to you, there are a lot of electricians who do slipshod work that gets passed by careless inspectors. My son's apartment in Boston had multiple heavy draw appliances wired to a single 15 am circuit in the kitchen of a remodeled building. The electrician who examined my job was happy to make a nice sum for 30 minutes work and saved me a bunch.

I think that Ajes may have misunderstood that, YOU, pulled the permit, and was responding to the assumption that the electrician had pulled the permit.

 

[Snoonyb]

Your project is in a "Grey Area". It's sort of a repair, thus no licensed electrician is required. But, it is also an upgrade, where a permit will be required. In my locality, it would be classified as a repair.

Safest Plan:
You can obtain an inexpensive Homeowner's Permit in most jurisdictions. You will do the work and an inspector that the local building department employs or contracts will check your project and issue you a "green tag". This way, you not only have a second opinion that the work was done properly, but your insurance company cannot object.

Another bonus is that sometimes the inspector may notice something unrelated that should be corrected. Unless there is imminent danger, she can't make you do anything, just suggest. (Free education)

Paul

PS: Don't hire any electrician who checks your work for money and uses his/her license for permitting and inspections. That's shady practice- and illegal. Suppose there is a fire. How quickly do you figure the electrician is going to bail out on you?

There are a lot of permit getting "License Renters" around here.They steal work from the legitimate local tradespeople and contractors who spent years learning their trade, going to update class, paying union dues, buying equipment and insurance, etc. (And, as Afjes_2016 discussed in #14, it's a really stupid move.) When I did inspections in the commercial-industrial-hospital division, I'd see tons of license rental jobs in commercial work. One can spot them a mile away.

Having an acquaintance look at your work informally & for free is a good idea. You get to learn good stuff. I do this often for family & friends.
Note that Do-It-Yourself is not stealing work, just good economics & a hopefully fun learning experience.)

A # of years ago CA developed an ordinance that limits who can accomplish electrical work, by saying that if you are working on any electrical equipment, that to eliminate you being restricted and fined, you must be able to prove you are an employee, of, a lic. electrical contractor. Not that the electrical contractor is the permitting party, just that you are an employee.

 

[PJB12]

I think that Ajes may have misunderstood that, YOU, pulled the permit, and was responding to the assumption that the electrician had pulled the permit.

If a homeowner obtains the permit, the electrician views the work and then the jurisdiction inspects the work; I'm not sure I see an ethical problem with that. It is like hiring a second inspection/opinion.

I don't think I'd do this however. It's a bit too risky since I didn't do the work.
There would have to be a signed contract detailing exactly what services I performed and upon what components. I would require a signed & witnessed liability insurance waiver. I'd have project photos in my files. These releases me if the person messes up elsewhere or later. Too complicated for me.

(And I stick strongly to my guns about never using any of my licenses to obtain permits for someone else to do the work.)

 

[bud16415]

Year ago my nephew a licensed aircraft mechanic was rewiring his home. He had lots of friends in the home building trade and they worked out some kind of a deal where he would do most of the work. His buddy a licensed electrician came over to take a look and flipped out telling him no inspector is ever going to believe an electrician ever did the work as it was too perfect. He didn’t have a single twist in any wire all staples were measured, holes drilled perfect with no burrs and inside the panel every wire trimmed perfect and all bends perfect and no wires crossing just like in an airplane.