Plumbing help needed.

[jean862]

Thank You For Posting this Important Information!
Paul

Thank you Ekrig and Paul. I will check that tank and follow the directions you've posted. If everything goes well, then I can higher the water pressure without worrying about the pipes banging. but if not, I'll just leave it as it is. Thanks again

 

[PJB12]

I'm glad that you got most of the problems solved! You do nice work!

My guess it that Ekrig's suggestion of an expansion tank will let you have higher pressure in the whole building with no noise and save wear-and-tear on the rest of the plumbing.

With respect (and you probably already knew this), it would be wise to leave access panels to service the pressure reducing valves. They need rebuilding from time to time, especially if your water has minerals or is hot. (Rarely, water hammer arrestors fail, too.)

Paul
PS: Please do research to verify my suggestions. i am a licensed, journeyman plumber, but do not work in the field full time. More knowledgeable people are here on this user group. My primary trade is master electrician (industrial & distribution) and mechanical contractor- mostly large hydronic, steam and chillers.

 

[jean862]

Thank you Ekrig and Paul. I will check that tank and follow the directions you've posted. If everything goes well, then I can higher the water pressure without worrying about the pipes banging. but if not, I'll just leave it as it is. Thanks again

I checked the tank, and it seems to be in working condition. The valve under it is clear and white. According to the instructions written on the tank, the valve under it will turn black or will be full of water.
Also, the tank was installed 3 years ago.

 

[jean862]

I'm glad that you got most of the problems solved! You do nice work!

My guess it that Ekrig's suggestion of an expansion tank will let you have higher pressure in the whole building with no noise and save wear-and-tear on the rest of the plumbing.

With respect (and you probably already knew this), it would be wise to leave access panels to service the pressure reducing valves. They need rebuilding from time to time, especially if your water has minerals or is hot. (Rarely, water hammer arrestors fail, too.)

Paul
PS: Please do research to verify my suggestions. i am a licensed, journeyman plumber, but do not work in the field full time. More knowledgeable people are here on this user group. My primary trade is master electrician (industrial & distribution) and mechanical contractor- mostly large hydronic, steam and chillers.

Yes most of the problem is resolved. Thanks to all of you on here. I did install 3 access panels. one 16x18 for the toilet just in case I have to get to the pump in the back of it. Once for the hot water and the other one is for the shower valves. The cold water can be access through the dropped ceiling.
I appreciate everyone for helping. hope you all stay well and safe.

 

[PJB12]

I checked the tank, and it seems to be in working condition. The valve under it is clear and white. According to the instructions written on the tank, the valve under it will turn black or will be full of water.
Also, the tank was installed 3 years ago.

The indicator cap's is handy, isn't it? (Amtrol, I'm guessing) But, it'll only show you if the diaphragm is allowing water into the air chamber. It won't show if the air pressure is low.

Unfortunately, over time the oxygen molecules in the air cushion migrate through the rubber diaphragm and the pressure drops- Kind of like how a car tire goes low, but the tire shop finds no leak.
The only way to check the diaphragm pressure is to remove water pressure from the tank and use an accurate tire pressure gauge. That's where an isolating/relieving valve comes in handy. A bicycle pump will correct the pressure.

If your tank is on the hot water side, oxygen will migrate through the butyl rubber faster than cold. (A rather boring chart is attached below)
As an example, on my home's hydronic system, the tank needs the air charge adjusted about every 12-14 months. (Water temp varies from about 60-F to 170-F during the year.) If I use nitrogen instead, it'll last about 24 months.

Hint: When you remove the cap to check the air pressure, keep the cap very dry. If water hits it, it'll turn black & never go white again.

Again, Great Job on your plumbing!
Paul

 

[jean862]

The indicator cap's is handy, isn't it? (Amtrol, I'm guessing) But, it'll only show you if the diaphragm is allowing water into the air chamber. It won't show if the air pressure is low.

Unfortunately, over time the oxygen molecules in the air cushion migrate through the rubber diaphragm and the pressure drops- Kind of like how a car tire goes low, but the tire shop finds no leak.
The only way to check the diaphragm pressure is to remove water pressure from the tank and use an accurate tire pressure gauge. That's where an isolating/relieving valve comes in handy. A bicycle pump will correct the pressure.

If your tank is on the hot water side, oxygen will migrate through the butyl rubber faster than cold. (A rather boring chart is attached below)
As an example, on my home's hydronic system, the tank needs the air charge adjusted about every 12-14 months. (Water temp varies from about 60-F to 170-F during the year.) If I use nitrogen instead, it'll last about 24 months.

Hint: When you remove the cap to check the air pressure, keep the cap very dry. If water hits it, it'll turn black & never go white again.

Again, Great Job on your plumbing!
Paul

Hi Paul/ Everyone.

Hope everyone is doing good. Paul - I did check the tank and I believe its almost to the end of its life. The top portion make a sound indicating water is in there. Midway of the tank makes the same sound. Past the rings, and a little further down after half, I get a different sound - indicating its empty (Air occupied). Its not much space between the bottom of the tank to there I think the seal - separating water and the air - I would say 4-5 inches.

Do you recommend switching the tank?

 

[PJB12]

Hi Paul/ Everyone.

Hope everyone is doing good. Paul - I did check the tank and I believe its almost to the end of its life. The top portion make a sound indicating water is in there. Midway of the tank makes the same sound. Past the rings, and a little further down after half, I get a different sound - indicating its empty (Air occupied). Its not much space between the bottom of the tank to there I think the seal - separating water and the air - I would say 4-5 inches.

Do you recommend switching the tank?

With diaphragm style tanks the Tap-To-Test method doesn't work well. Neither does feeling for a temperature difference. Those methods work great for non-diaphragm tanks most often found on older hydronic and very large, industrial potable & process water systems.

Your tank might be good, but low on air due to oxygen migration- a very normal thing. On potable water systems, the tank shell usually rusts before the diaphragm goes bad. (Opposite on hydronic systems)

Why Tap-To-Test Isn't Reliable:
In day-to-day use, the diaphragm is crowned at or near the top of the tank. When the water heats & has no place to go, only if the pressure rises above the air charge pressure, the diaphragm moves down to suit. The diaphragm on most tanks won't move more than an inch or two- even if the air charge is lost. Even with no air pressure, the diaphragm will be at or near the top of the tank when water isn't pushing on it. So, sounds can be confusing, indeed!

No water is indicated by your Magic Cap, so I'm guessing your tank's diaphragm is A-OK.

Before spending on a new tank:
Perhaps order an isolation valve with drain or weep port & have it on hand. Then, when the water's cool to a safe temperature, remove the tank. ***It may be quite heavy if lots of water is in it***.

Then tank must be empty and off of the system to properly test:
Dump the water out of the tank & check the air charge. A quick indication of a leaking diaphragm is if air comes out of the water connection when you pump it up. (If you can't pump and feel for air at the same time, a balloon over the water inlet is handy for that check.) Note that a tiny leak might not be noticeable at the water connection while you pump.

If you put the isolation valve in where the tank was connected now, you can turn the house water back on & leave the tank off for a while to see if the pressure holds. Allow about a quarter to half pound of pressure drop when you re-check to account for the compressed air cooling down after pumping.

Here's Hoping Your Tank's Good!

Paul

PS: A place called SupplyHouse Com sells both types of expansion tank isolation valves. Usually orders arrive the next day. Also, plumbing supply houses and heating supply houses usually have one type or another in stock.

 

[jean862]

With diaphragm style tanks the Tap-To-Test method doesn't work well. Neither does feeling for a temperature difference. Those methods work great for non-diaphragm tanks most often found on older hydronic and very large, industrial potable & process water systems.

Your tank might be good, but low on air due to oxygen migration- a very normal thing. On potable water systems, the tank shell usually rusts before the diaphragm goes bad. (Opposite on hydronic systems)

Why Tap-To-Test Isn't Reliable:
In day-to-day use, the diaphragm is crowned at or near the top of the tank. When the water heats & has no place to go, only if the pressure rises above the air charge pressure, the diaphragm moves down to suit. The diaphragm on most tanks won't move more than an inch or two- even if the air charge is lost. Even with no air pressure, the diaphragm will be at or near the top of the tank when water isn't pushing on it. So, sounds can be confusing, indeed!

No water is indicated by your Magic Cap, so I'm guessing your tank's diaphragm is A-OK.

Before spending on a new tank:
Perhaps order an isolation valve with drain or weep port & have it on hand. Then, when the water's cool to a safe temperature, remove the tank. ***It may be quite heavy if lots of water is in it***.

Then tank must be empty and off of the system to properly test:
Dump the water out of the tank & check the air charge. A quick indication of a leaking diaphragm is if air comes out of the water connection when you pump it up. (If you can't pump and feel for air at the same time, a balloon over the water inlet is handy for that check.) Note that a tiny leak might not be noticeable at the water connection while you pump.

If you put the isolation valve in where the tank was connected now, you can leave the tank off for a while to see if the pressure holds. Allow about a quarter to half pound of pressure drop when you re-check to account for the compressed air cooling down after pumping.

Here's Hoping Your Tank's Good!

Paul

PS: A place called SupplyHouse Com sells both types of expansion tank isolation valves. Usually orders arrive the next day. Also, plumbing supply houses and heating supply houses usually have one type or another in stock.

Thank you - I will check the pressure on it and let you know. Worst case, I can just swap the tank if needed.