Twisted Joist

[corman842]

Hi! I'm trying to determine if an issue I'm having is something that is a safety issue that requires immediate repair, or simply just cosmetic. I noticed that in the back portion of my dining room the floors were beginning to sag and the wall alongside had a crack (though it's a 116 year old house, so not sure if that's just typical). Beneath it it appears the floor joist is twisted (I assume that's the phrase for this? It's not sitting straight). I've attached pictures of the issue. There was a small amount of mold on the joist, which I've cleaned off, but it doesn't feel like the wood is rotted and other than some discoloration on the paint, it doesn't seem different from the other joists. Is this something I have to have repaired right away for safety's sake, or is this just an annoyance? How would I go about correcting it? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

P.S.: There may have been some level of water damage, but I'm not sure. During the summer I had come across some watery discharge from a floor standing AC above it, which I cleaned up but I'm not sure how long it was there. Also, there was a period where water would pool in the alley along the house near that area of the building, but this has since been remedied by extending the gutter out into the backyard. Just in case that's relevant. Thanks!

 

[nealtw]

In this picture is the joist on the right the out side of the house.
Are you sure the house is that old?
Are there other areas that you can get pictures for a better look at the construction of the house?
What kind of siding do you have.
Yes this does look, well, not good!

 

[Snoonyb]

Hi! I'm trying to determine if an issue I'm having is something that is a safety issue that requires immediate repair, or simply just cosmetic. I noticed that in the back portion of my dining room the floors were beginning to sag and the wall alongside had a crack (though it's a 116 year old house, so not sure if that's just typical). Beneath it it appears the floor joist is twisted (I assume that's the phrase for this? It's not sitting straight). I've attached pictures of the issue. There was a small amount of mold on the joist, which I've cleaned off, but it doesn't feel like the wood is rotted and other than some discoloration on the paint, it doesn't seem different from the other joists. Is this something I have to have repaired right away for safety's sake, or is this just an annoyance? How would I go about correcting it? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

P.S.: There may have been some level of water damage, but I'm not sure. During the summer I had come across some watery discharge from a floor standing AC above it, which I cleaned up but I'm not sure how long it was there. Also, there was a period where water would pool in the alley along the house near that area of the building, but this has since been remedied by extending the gutter out into the backyard. Just in case that's relevant. Thanks!

Interesting bridge blocking.

Is there any discoloration on the rim joist that would indicate this is a resent event?

Because the dia. dimension of the joist twisted could be reflected in s slight lifting of the floor, are you sure there is a sag, and not a slight lift?

It appears to me that because there is no obvious signs of nails where the joist has deflected, the deflection may be the result of that row of nails having been missed.

I'd just cut a couple of 2X blocks, reflective of the deflection and place them between the deflected joist and the next joist where the dimension at the top of the joist are the narrowest.

 

[corman842]

In this picture is the joist on the right the out side of the house.
Are you sure the house is that old?
Are there other areas that you can get pictures for a better look at the construction of the house?
What kind of siding do you have.
Yes this does look, well, not good!

I can try to get more shots once I'm home. The house may actually be older, records were lost after the Great Baltimore Fire, so everything built 1900 and earlier is just listed as "1900." It's an old brick rowhome, the exterior is brick with stucco on top. The joist to the right is the joist that runs along the stairway to the basement in the center of the house. Anything in particular that makes you think it looks not so good? Something a novice such as myself can address, or do you think I need someone to have a look at it? Thanks!

 

[nealtw]

Anything that old is balloon frame, first we want figure out how it was built, what exactly is wrong and then figure how hard it would be to fix.

Can you figure out where the wall is upstairs compared to the floor joist on the right. I am talking about the wall in the picture with the floor damage, or am I going the wrong direction?

 

[corman842]

Ohhh, okay, gotcha. The joist to the right is alongside the stairwell, not the wall in the image. The wall in the image is above the joist to the left and the one to the left of that in the image you had in your post.

 

[butch23]

the house probably is that old because the lumber looks to be true 2"x 10". the walls from what i can tell look like plaster ,also i noticed the old galvanized pipe under the house first i would take any screws and hangers holding the pipe to the joist loose ,then measure at the top in between the 2 joists and cuts several 2x10 blocks that measurement and if you have any help take about a 24" 2X4 block and screw it to the joist you want to straighten and let someone pull on it while the block is drove in and continue this for 3 or 4 2x10 blocks after you get it as straight as you can, put some blocks in the opposite bay just to prevent bowing again .give this a try and talk someone in to helping you and it shouldn't take to long .good luck .butch23

 

[nealtw]

the house probably is that old because the lumber looks to be true 2"x 10". the walls from what i can tell look like plaster ,also i noticed the old galvanized pipe under the house first i would take any screws and hangers holding the pipe to the joist loose ,then measure at the top in between the 2 joists and cuts several 2x10 blocks that measurement and if you have any help take about a 24" 2X4 block and screw it to the joist you want to straighten and let someone pull on it while the block is drove in and continue this for 3 or 4 2x10 blocks after you get it straight as you can put some blocks in the opposite bay just to prevent bowing again .give this a try and talk someone in to helping you and it shouldn't take to long .good luck .butch23

So all your proof of age can be found in any house built in 1946.
So the fix you talked about will fix the floor upstairs how and what do you think causes that problem?

 

[nealtw]

After looking closer we can see the other end of that joist is ,or was stuck into the brick. Now I suspect that is where the floor is sagging
I think that much of the far end has rotted off which allowed it to bend over.
It should look much like this. That would hold them straight.
https://baltimorebrickbybrick.com/2014/12/16/joist-pockets/

 

[corman842]

Thanks guys, for all your responses! I'm most definitely a novice and I don't know if I trust myself to make these repairs properly. Is not addressing this a safety issue, or is it simply cosmetic? If I were to pay someone to help with this, would a general contractor do or would I need to go to some sort of specialist like a structural engineer? Any thoughts on typical costs for this type of fix? Thanks again for all the guidance and help!

 

[JoeD]

A structural engineer will give you a solution but you will need to do the work or hire someone.
A general contractor will do the work and he may have his own engineer on staff or hire one.

 

[Snoonyb]

Thanks guys, for all your responses! I'm most definitely a novice and I don't know if I trust myself to make these repairs properly. Is not addressing this a safety issue, or is it simply cosmetic? If I were to pay someone to help with this, would a general contractor do or would I need to go to some sort of specialist like a structural engineer? Any thoughts on typical costs for this type of fix? Thanks again for all the guidance and help!

A general contractor, at the most, or a competent handyman.

 

[corman842]

Okay, thanks! And as it appears, does this seem like a major safety issue/something that is apt to get worse over time, or is it something that can wait for a little bit?

 

[Snoonyb]

Okay, thanks! And as it appears, does this seem like a major safety issue/something that is apt to get worse over time, or is it something that can wait for a little bit?

Getting a couple of estimates gives you an Idea of the extent of the repairs and deciding what and when, is up to you.

I, frankly, do not see an immediacy, from here in S. Ca.

 

[nealtw]

Not knowing what your skills are, maybe, maybe, and maybe.

But no matter who you hire some investigating has to be done.
Some destruction may have to be done before we see what has to be done.
Non of this is rocket science and we can guide you thru it.

If not find a friend of a friend who is a carpenter and have him fix it.

 

[nealtw]

Getting a couple of estimates gives you an Idea of the extent of the repairs and deciding what and when, is up to you.

I, frankly, do not see an immediacy, from here in S. Ca.

If I am right about the end of that joist is broke loose and we can't see the rest of the joists or the condition of the sub floor, do we have to see it before we are concerned.
I think we need more info before we make that decision.

 

[Snoonyb]

If I am right about the end of that joist is broke loose and we can't see the rest of the joists or the condition of the sub floor, do we have to see it before we are concerned.
I think we need more info before we make that decision.

I'm more concerned that the water leak may have softened the plate at the foundation causing the doubler supporting the wall to settle.

The "twisted joist" appears to have occurred some time ago and because there does not appear to be any bent or pulled nails, along with the 1x bridge blocking, which may or may not exist, it became destiny.

He certainly needs someone to crawl around under there and poke around.

 

[nealtw]

I'm more concerned that the water leak may have softened the plate at the foundation causing the doubler supporting the wall to settle.

The "twisted joist" appears to have occurred some time ago and because there does not appear to be any bent or pulled nails, along with the 1x bridge blocking, which may or may not exist, it became destiny.

He certainly needs someone to crawl around under there and poke around.

Do me a favor and look at some of the things I see.

I took that photo over to my computer and enlarged so I could see the brick at the other end of the bay. we can see the pipes go up thru the floor.
that style of building has the floor joist let into the brick wall, so for 100 years that wood has been subject to moisture coming and going in and out of the brick.
The story is that there has been a fairly new damage caused by water but we really don't know new from old, just guessing at best.

Now go look at the photo of the oak floor, we can see the floor is spungey as the wood is separated, if we believe it was tight at one time.
When they did old plaster they often just put a 1x3 around door opening and windows and across the floor and built the plaster to that thickness. As this is a brick wall I suspect that that board across the floor against the brick was nailed to the floor.
All other trim or baseboards added were just nailed to the first one, so the crack we see between the molding and the plaster is because the floor is going down.
That crack is to long to be caused by one failed joist, I suspect 2 maybe 3 are no longer attached at the wall. If not completely rotted away severely compromised.
Thoughts?

 

[Snoonyb]

Do me a favor and look at some of the things I see.

I took that photo over to my computer and enlarged so I could see the brick at the other end of the bay. we can see the pipes go up thru the floor.
that style of building has the floor joist let into the brick wall, so for 100 years that wood has been subject to moisture coming and going in and out of the brick.
The story is that there has been a fairly new damage caused by water but we really don't know new from old, just guessing at best.

Now go look at the photo of the oak floor, we can see the floor is spungey as the wood is separated, if we believe it was tight at one time.
When they did old plaster they often just put a 1x3 around door opening and windows and across the floor and built the plaster to that thickness. As this is a brick wall I suspect that that board across the floor against the brick was nailed to the floor.
All other trim or baseboards added were just nailed to the first one, so the crack we see between the molding and the plaster is because the floor is going down.
That crack is to long to be caused by one failed joist, I suspect 2 maybe 3 are no longer attached at the wall. If not completely rotted away severely compromised.
Thoughts?

While all those assumption may prove to be true, along with the discoloration of the underside of the floor sheating lends to the presumption of waters deteriorating effect.

Someone needs to crawl into and investigate.

 

[bud16415]

Someone needs to crawl into and investigate.

I have had good luck with attaching my iPhone to a stick and turning on the movie record and light and sticking it back in some dark tight places and seeing what was going on. Just an idea if the area is going to be tough to belly into.