What do y'all think of LEED standards?

[Snoonyb]

"I can't understand what you wrote there in #13, @Snoonyb. My foreign friends tell me English is a tough language though, so I don't hold it against you, and I'm up with the baby so I have time to try and pick this apart..."

It can be, especially when you attempt to read to much into it.

"I'd think the the individual application, in the cert. process, would be determining,
"Translation: "it depends on how the process of applying for certification goes."

Translation;The cert. process, and the rigors there-in, are determined by the class of Building.

"Theoretically you could build to LEED specs without applying for certification. In fact I wasn't even thinking about the certification side of things since it has nothing to do with efficiency."

Foresothe, it has everything to do with efficiecncy, remember the point of this thred is energy efficiency and the acronym "green".

"Maybe it has to do with your ability to advertise the house as built to LEED specs when you go to sell it? But I hear ya, paperwork is annoying."

I'm talking about commercial buildings, and I would never subordinate my human rights to some group of ner-do-wells who have never been subjected to title 24, except to make it cost prohibitive.

"I have no idea what that means, but it's possible you were trying to say something like "ultimately it depends whether the benefits outweigh the costs." That's a truism and doesn't really add anything of substance to what you wrote, but it's not wrong I guess."

"The resolution would, as always, risk-reward."

KISS principle; money in, money out.

 

[Flyover]

It can be, especially when you attempt to read to much into it.

I can't read too much into anything that isn't readable to begin with.

 

[Snoonyb]

Really sorry to learn about your comprehension difficulties.

 

[Spicoli43]

As far as LED's, they are bad for your eyes, and it is best to wear glasses designed for both indoor and outdoor use. I own some Groovy Bee outdoor blue light blocking glasses, need to get some for the indoors. I haven't done a ton of research, but need to, and need to also replace all indoor LED's with Incandescent lights. IF Biden is going to be President, best stock up on Incandescent's now.

As far as LEED, I have never heard of it, but automatically dismiss everything that says "carbon footprint" on it, based on the sheer idiocy of it. Without carbon, I'm not typing this and you aren't reading it because we aren't alive. For the fun of it, increased carbon in the atmosphere over the last few decades has resulted in the Greening of the Earth. The source for that is a small startup think tank organization called NASA.

As far as "Energy Star", why doesn't anything with that tag work? Remember the dishwashers of the 70's and 80's that lasted 30 years and turned out bone dry dishes in a little over an hour? I had a GE "Energy Star" with TWO heated dry functions. When used, the machine took 5 hours and 8 minutes to complete, and was a lake inside. They couldn't answer why their machine was more energy efficient than the old school ones, but said customer service reps weren't alive in the 80's. My current Whirlpool dryer takes a LONG time for just bar towels. Remember the lonely Maytag repairman? Not anymore!

Now, while I struggle to read anything by the moronic hypocrites on the Left, it's real easy to see through everything they preach when they fly to "climate change" "global warming" conferences in private jets. Why did they stop using "global warming"? I think they stopped when Al Gore's doom and gloom predictions proved as accurate as the End of the World preachers. Here in Montana, they took down signs at Glacier National Park saying that the Ice would be gone when it didn't go anywhere.

If they admitted they are not superior to anyone and we are all learning everything as we go, maybe it would be possible to have a conversation with them. Al Gore is a Hero of mine, though. One day, he saw fish swimming in the streets in Florida. He was alarmed of course, don't know if he had written his book yet or not. Anyway, later in the day the water and fish were gone. To normal people, that's called High and Low Tide.

Climate change exists, it just takes 30,000 years. That's why it's called an "Ice Age" and a "Warming Period". No, Ocasio Cortez' prediction of the World exploding isn't true if we keep farting cows and SUV's around. The Earth has been through countless Hurricanes, Tornadoes, Floods, Fires, Meteors, whatever killed the Dinosaurs etc., and is still ticking.

Are Leftists FROM this Planet?

 

[Flyover]

I see that "Let's talk about whether high efficiency construction methods are also good construction methods" is secret code in some circles for "Let's do some Alex Jones LARPing".

You learn something new every day I guess, but obsessing over the Left and environmentalism isn't what I started this thread for and it doesn't belong in this part of the forum anyway. It's also a violation of the forum rules, specifically rules 2, 3 and 4. Rule 7 got violated too.

I will ask one time, before reporting comments, that the Alex Jones LARPers please remove their comments from this thread and take it on back to Facebook or 4chan or wherever it is you normally do your flaming, so that the grownups here can talk about construction methods.

 

[Steve123]

I just built a home. I am somewhat compulsive-obsessive about efficiency, so its rather well insulated and tight. I looked at the possibility of making it Energy Star Certified (in the end, did not), but did not look at LEED certification. I did understand there were LEED guidelines for construction, but did not realize one could LEED certify a home. Myself, I have to admit that am more concerned with efficiency than the sustainable products side of it. I have plenty of sprayfoam on my house which likely would have killed any possibility of LEED certification. But for those that are more interested in the sustainability of the products, thats great that the guidelines have been developed and written down. You don't have to have each contractor trying to figure out how to build sustainably --- just follow the written guidelines.

 

[Flyover]

Thanks for sharing, @Steve123. Did you use a specific construction method and/or design to maximize efficiency from the ground up, or did you start with something more conventional and then try to increase efficiency after the fact? Curious to know how you arrived at your decisions, what tradeoffs you considered, etc.

What else did you do besides use spray foam? (BTW I have no idea if stuff like doing blower door tests or installing triple-glazed windows is SOP these days.)

And yeah, to be clear, I'm not really asking about "sustainability". That's an interesting topic but it's not relevant for this thread.

 

[Spicoli43]

I see that "Let's talk about whether high efficiency construction methods are also good construction methods" is secret code in some circles for "Let's do some Alex Jones LARPing".

You learn something new every day I guess, but obsessing over the Left and environmentalism isn't what I started this thread for and it doesn't belong in this part of the forum anyway. It's also a violation of the forum rules, specifically rules 2, 3 and 4. Rule 7 got violated too.

I will ask one time, before reporting comments, that the Alex Jones LARPers please remove their comments from this thread and take it on back to Facebook or 4chan or wherever it is you normally do your flaming, so that the grownups here can talk about construction methods.

"So aside from cost considerations, what are other criticisms of LEED?"

I guess you didn't like my breakdown of the TRUTH about Carbon, so you massively violated Rule #2. I don't know what LARPing is, don't know what 4chan is, don't have Facebook, and despise Alex Jones, who thinks the Military is a bunch of baby killers.

Why is it only people on the Left that are sensitive and tattle on people? Every fact that I stated offends the Left because it exposes their hypocrisy. I didn't call you out at all.

If you post something that has to do with the environment, it will naturally swerve into politics. It's like starting a thread about candy and being surprised when people start talking about sugar.

 

[Steve123]

Thanks for sharing, @Steve123. Curious to know how you arrived at your decisions, what tradeoffs you considered, etc.

The only real trade-off is the initial cost.

The exterior walls are brick > 1" polyiso foam board > 2" closed cell sprayfoam > 3.5" fiberglass batts > drywall. Note that there is no wood sheathing in that description. That's becoming more common in my area. Steel strips are used for shear bracing. The continuous foam boards minimize thermal bridging. Note also that the vapor barrier is on the exterior side. One can do that so long as you make sure the insulation is thick enough that the interior face of the insulation will not get cold enough to allow condensation.

The windows are triple pane, argon filled, and low E coatings. Paid through the nose for those things. All operating windows are casement windows. A casement will compress the seals when you close them and give a good seal. Any window that slides, will not have a very good seal. I also considered the European tilt-and-turn windows (which have excellent closers that pull it tight from all four sides), but putting interior window coverings on those things is pretty awkward.

I got the 97% modulating forced air furnace and 16 SEER AC. But the freakin HVAC guys clearly didn't bother doing a manual J calculation, and have a system that I think is double the required size. And have double the associated airflow (and airflow sound) than needed. The settings on the heating can be dialed down since its a modulating variable speed furnace, but the oversized AC condenser requires a minimum airflow to keep it from freezing up. In HVAC, bigger is not always better.

The house is also prepped for putting solar panels on the South roof slope. The big thing is to make sure the trusses are engineered for the extra weight of the solar panels. Its no big deal at time of construction, but you otherwise risk needing to prove your roof can take the additional weight when you apply for the permit. The plans showed an extra conduit from attic to basement for the high voltage wires (again, cheap at time of construction). But in the end, location of the panel did not require the conduit.

 

[david86camaro]

I'm a mechanical engineer and in my previous job I did a lot of commercial and large residential work, and before the 2008 a large percent of the jobs were LEED, but there was a large drop off after that. I designed many jobs that were LEED certified (even though I was not certified, my boss was), there were a lot of requirements that would not improve efficiency, like low VOC (why the spray foam would not be acceptable), and "innovative systems" that would get LEED credit but in the end did not improve efficiency. I can't remember all the things that I would run into that were more "Green" in the political sense but not in the efficiency way. I think there were things with the plumbing to that didn't make sense either.

 

[Steve123]

Actually, I thought the spray foam used greenhouse gas causing chemicals, as the reason it would not pass LEED requirements. Not 100% sure though.

 

[Snoonyb]

I'm a mechanical engineer and in my previous job I did a lot of commercial and large residential work, and before the 2008 a large percent of the jobs were LEED, but there was a large drop off after that. I designed many jobs that were LEED certified (even though I was not certified, my boss was), there were a lot of requirements that would not improve efficiency, like low VOC (why the spray foam would not be acceptable), and "innovative systems" that would get LEED credit but in the end did not improve efficiency. I can't remember all the things that I would run into that were more "Green" in the political sense but not in the efficiency way. I think there were things with the plumbing to that didn't make sense either.

AMEN!

I found this interesting;
Impact for renters, owners and the environment
"LEED helps create living spaces where people can thrive."

Really, and exactly what is so devastatingly deficient with the standard building practices that are adhered to within the IRC, or is this an adjunct too.

"LEED-certified homes are designed to provide clean indoor air and ample natural light and to use safe building materials to ensure our comfort and good health."

Same question?

"They help us reduce our energy and water consumption, thereby lowering utility bills each month, among other financial benefits. Using the strategies outlined in LEED, homeowners are having a net-positive impact on their communities."

Life is a learning curve. Teach it, don't prescribe it.

"LEED homes are also designed, constructed and operated to be resilient in adverse conditions and are developed with proactive design planning for potential impacts of catastrophic weather."

Same question.

"Health: LEED homes are designed to maximize indoor fresh air and minimize exposure to airborne toxins and pollutants, making it healthier and more comfortable."

Really, since when is opening the doors and windows and availing yourself of the environment so that you can develop immunities from all these nasty toxins and pollutants, a bad thing.

"Savings: LEED homes use less energy and water, which means lower utility bills. On average, certified homes use 20 to 30 percent less energy than non-green homes, with some homes saving up to 60 percent."

At what cost, besides the registration and cert. fee, and what is the time frame, of each individual residence, for the return on investment, follow the money

"Value: With proper planning, LEED homes can be built for the same cost as non-green homes. LEED homes can qualify for discounted homeowner’s insurance, tax breaks and other incentives. And in many markets, certified green homes are now selling quicker and for more money than comparable non-green homes."

In the general scheme of things, this is known as "bait and switch";
And the design examples are where?
What insurance co?
What tax breaks, federal, what IRS chapter in the tax code, local tax breaks, which states and the filling limitations in each state are, and what incentives, by what agencies, in each state?
Where is the prime market?

"For better homes, accountability makes a difference. Through a carefully managed, independent, third-party verification system, LEED-certification affirms the integrity of green building commitments by ensuring project teams are delivering on design plans and goals. Third-party validation helps guarantee that each project saves energy, water and other resources, reducing overall environmental impact. No cutting corners."

Follow the money, It always leads you too the crook.

 

[Flyover]

@Steve123 That's my understanding about the spray foam too. In the videos I remember the guy saying also there were some materials they used because they didn't have to be shipped as far (thereby reducing the overall amount of energy required just to build the house, etc.). BTW thanks for that really helpful breakdown in your earlier comment.

Snoony I totally agree about "indoor air quality" (provided I don't live downwind from a paper factory or something, obviously). The same "fresh air" I breathe walking around a suburban or rural neighborhood is surely fine for inside my house. That said, if my HVAC system introduces toxins or irritants at some point in the conditioning process I'd want them reduced to acceptably low levels before that conditioned air is circulated into the house. I'm guessing those concerns are already addressed in the design of even the least efficient modern HVAC systems anyway, though I could be wrong. Off-gassing of certain building materials might be something to look at too.

What I've learned so far is that over all it looks like LEED specs are compatible with good construction in general, but if you aren't as concerned about the environmental impact of the build and are really just interested in efficiency and longevity of the structure then LEED probably is cranking it way past the optimization point, and contains a few specs that are probably just there because of political trends rather than science.

Y'all can let me know if that sounds like a fair summary.

If I was building a house today I might look at LEED for guidance on how to get to high efficiency but I wouldn't go crazy trying to do stuff like avoid anything that has to be shipped more than 100 miles to the site. And I can pretty much guarantee I wouldn't try to get my house certified.

 

[Snoonyb]

Sounds like a deal to me and was my point all along.

Commercial buildings are a cloistered environment and are reminiscent of legionaries disease, after about 4 days, I'd start breaking things.

 

[david86camaro]

Actually, I thought the spray foam used greenhouse gas causing chemicals, as the reason it would not pass LEED requirements. Not 100% sure though.

You are probably correct, it's been over 3 years since I have really worked with LEED, so I'm sure there are things I remember differently!

Snoonyb did a good job adding some specifics that LEED/green isn't always what is best for the people or environment and efficiency. I had the feeling that there was 20-40% of the points weren't what was best for the long term or for the owner and/or occupant. There were some things that were really good, like utilizing recycled materials or existing material on site is always good, despite I think of my self in no way an environmentalist, I always try to reuse what I have (maybe it's because I'm cheap, and enjoy fixing things), so there are things that make sense.

 

[Flyover]

@david86camaro Of those 20-40% of points that weren't what was best for the long term or for the owner and/or occupant, were any of them actively detrimental to the quality of the build/longevity of the structure/etc.? Or do you just mean they were unnecessary expenses to check political boxes?

 

[david86camaro]

More on the political side of things in 2 ways, money and power to the LEED and governmental controlling all of this and then companies and others that will benefit because of they have the corner of the market locked in for their systems that are sold as better but have no proof showing they are better. I saw a building built around raised floor HVAC because it gets LEED points, in conversations with building engineers and others that dealt with that building and there is no savings that were promised and was difficult to please the tenants, no one likes air flow blowing up their pants, skirts or on their feet! Let alone the maintenance costs and the added difficulty changing things vs a standard system.

 

[Steve123]

That's interesting. Around here, floor mounted furnace registers have always been standard. They are normally up against exterior walls, under a window, so unless you are hugging a window, they won't be blowing air up your pants.

 

[Annapolis Albert]

LEED stands for Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design. LEED doesn't only apply to energy efficiency in the building. It also applies to the products that go into the building and the energy required to get those products to the job site and the energy required to dispose of the packaging, etc., and also the product at the end of its life cycle. So LEED is a process. I worked on a couple of healthcare projects that were trying to achieve a certain level of LEED certification. The products that I was offering were made primarily of recycled metal, contained no formaldehyde, the finish did not off gas. The product would be shipped from the factory in moving blankets, and at the end of their very long life cycle, the metal could be melted down and reused to build more metal things. So if you now calculated the cost of the project in terms of all of its total environmental impact then possibly the product I was offering might be the best product.

If I was building a house it's not likely that I would build it to attempt to receive a level of LEED certification. There are other recognized standards that you can achieve.

I would spend time calculating the amount of energy it takes to condition the space. I would also like the finishes to be healthy. That new house smell might not be that good for us. I'd like the roofing and siding to be made of a material that will last more than a few years. Basically, I'd prioritize the cost to own the building over the cost to build it.

The house we live in looks like the house next door. However every couple of years our neighbor needs to paint his house, his roof lasts only 10 years or so. In the winter our house has snow on the roof, he has icicles hanging down. Our windows are clear, his are fogged up. The best part is that no heating oil truck has ever been here.

Our house was tested by Efficiency Nova Scotia. Our score is about 85%. This means our house is more efficient than 85% of the houses in Nova Scotia. We spent some money last year and added Mini-Split heat pumps. This decreased the demand for our electric boiler and reduced our overall electric bill by 54%. We had already replaced all our incandescent light bulbs with LED bulbs. There is more we can do but those improvements will be done when the existing product needs to be replaced.