Advice for this nightmare basement?

[nealtw]

Bud: I think jmr106 is looking at all options and the related cost to find the most cost effective way to make the house except-able to a buy and his or her inspector.
If the costs aren't a killer, relocation water and heat would solve the problem by just raising the floor above the water table or the closer to that as possible.
That would cut the pumping by some %.

 

[bud16415]

Very true.

I had a friend that bought a home and had a chronic wet basement. He made a plan to fix it and cut 2’ out around the whole basement on the inside. When he was moving the dirt out a bucket at a time he got down about 18 inches and found another basement floor. When he inspected closely the last owner jacked the house up and added to rows of blocks filled the basement and poured a new floor. He said if they had went 3 courses they might have solved the problem or that the water table may had went up over time also. He put in a sump as shallow as he could and still have it work and with his drains he ran the pump would keep up but ran a very high duty cycle. He said in looking back he should have raised the house two more blocks and poured a third basement floor.

 

[nealtw]

One of my ex-employees has house built on what is best described as jello and he has one bedroom built in what at one time was an under house carport. It already had 2 floors. He pulled the pump and let it flood just so he could see the high water mark. He took out both floors and dug out 3 ft of muck, refilled it with gravel and was able to get a 7 ft ceiling and no pump need.

 

[jmr106]

The reason I was able to buy a fairly nice house with good bones in a great community was because it was up for short sale for $25k. The bank required cash payment and stipulated as is. There was enough wrong that it would and did scare off potential buyers for several years.

If you were planning on living there yourself and were ok with whatever solution you come up with that’s one way to look at it, but as the plan is to fix to sell try and keep in mind what the sale process is going to be like. The house we bought for 25k we got because I told them it has these problems and there are dozens of others close by with less problems. Housing for the most part today is a buyers’ market.

That is pretty much my mother's plan, to sell to someone on a more "as is basis". Around here, a lot of people tend to buy the houses, fix them up and flip them. For instance, one up the street on the corner sold for like $32K. Saw the photos of the inside and it is way worse than my mother's house...the walls and stuff had huge holes and such in them and a lot needed to be done to it. Someone bought it and had a bunch of people come in and fix it up, now they're trying to get about $80K for it. The house across the street...it sold for like 50K and someone bought it and remodeled it, then re-sold for about 130K. A nice couple moved in there and were very quiet. Then one day someone shot outside in one of the yards (we never figured out who it was, but we thought it may have been at the house across the street from us, which was next to them). They up and left the house, moving immediately after. I don't think they sold it, they just walked away from it, and will likely have someone coming after them if it doesn't sell again for the 130K+ that is probably left on the mortgage. They only lived there for maybe a month or two.

I think she has about 45K left on this mortgage here. At one point the mortgage was just about paid off completely, but she had a lot of credit card debt and did a refinance for I think 60K or 65K back in 2004 or so, and that's why there is still that amount remaining on it.

 

[slownsteady]

couple points from posts further up:
*The dimple board shouldn't be subject to any pressure that would cause spray to come out of the fasteners. It simply diverts the water down the wall. If you have water coming out of those blocks under pressure, then you have a bigger or different problem.
*There is a version of dimple board that can lay flat on the floor and do the job of the gravel (you can see it on the J-Drain website) I don't know which is more cost effective, but the labor may be worth it.
* Not my area of expertise, but I would have concerns with electric water heater in a wet location like this. Higher amperage, wet ground etc.

 

[slownsteady]

two relevant threads:

http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=18778&highlight=tankless
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=17550&highlight=tankless

 

[nealtw]

two relevant threads:

http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=18778&highlight=tankless
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=17550&highlight=tankless

The second one is gas, thanks S&S
I asked havasu to drop over with what info he has on his unit.

 

[jmr106]

Where does the furnace vent to, Silly me I assumed the two would join and go up fairly close to where they are.
Tankless hot water, we see these in some big houses now, supposed to be cheaper to operate and some brands can be installed on the outside of the exterior wall.
This one could go in the crawlspace against the foundation the exhaust is just pvc pipe.
http://kirklandheating.com/kirkland-water-heaters/noritz-nrc1111-tankless-gas-water-heater/

Nope, they're totally different and the water heater vertical vent that goes up through the bathroom closet is actually over there right next to the dirt, which makes me wonder what the possibilities are of a smaller water tank on a cement slab on the dirt.

Given how big that heating/air system is, I don't think they could cram it into the crawlspace area. I wish I could put both on the dirt and fill that stupid hole up. For the water heater, I saw some photos like this online, though. Looks like a space similar to ours.

 

[slownsteady]

The second one is gas, thanks S&S
I asked havasu to drop over with what info he has on his unit.

still relevant....

 

[nealtw]

Nope, they're totally different and the water heater vertical vent that goes up through the bathroom close is actually over there right next to the dirt, which makes me wonder what the possibilities are of a smaller water tank on a cement slab on the dirt.

Given how big that system is, I don't think they could cram it into the crawlspace area. I saw some photos like this online, though. Looks like a space similar to ours.

Yes you can get a squat 40 gal but what about the breaker box or do you still have fuses

 

[jmr106]

Yes you can get a squat 40 gal but what about the breaker box or do you still have fuses

100 amp breaker, I presume from the 70's or 80's. Electric clothes dryer on 30 amp, heat/air on 30 amp. Both pumps combined are about 10 amps, plus the rest of the typical stuff in the house.

 

[jmr106]

couple points from posts further up:
*The dimple board shouldn't be subject to any pressure that would cause spray to come out of the fasteners. It simply diverts the water down the wall. If you have water coming out of those blocks under pressure, then you have a bigger or different problem.
*There is a version of dimple board that can lay flat on the floor and do the job of the gravel (you can see it on the J-Drain website) I don't know which is more cost effective, but the labor may be worth it.
* Not my area of expertise, but I would have concerns with electric water heater in a wet location like this. Higher amperage, wet ground etc.

I don't see how the breaker could carry an electric water heater anyway, plus I have read that they take 10-20 seconds to kick on and you get this cold water thing going on and then a burst of hot. It seemed like everyone badmouthed the electric ones and preferred traditional tanks based on all of the reviews that I read. Tankless ones apparently come in gas, but require a 3/4" gas pipe (I have no idea if that black pipe going to the water heater is 3/4" and I think it is cast iron or something) and I read something about a forced air vent setup and all kinds of extra expensive stuff. Apparently the same vent couldn't be used, so then I'd have that open vent. Someone could cap it off at the bottom, I guess...if it were possible to get a gas on-demand. But still, it would eventually fill up with considerable water due to the semi-open roof vent for the current water heater. I need to see where that heat/air vents, as well.

Well, I meant more like lightly leaking out/dripping from the affixed lower points. The only part that "sprays" out is only about an inch or so and that's because of little cracks and such in the lower wall with water that builds up about a foot or so. There never seems to be any water beyond a foot or foot and a half inside of the lower wall. I have never looked on the outside of the wall in that space between the dirt and wall under heavy flow. It may be coming from the surrounding dirt on just the very bottom. The top or middle of the wall never seems to be wet, but I would still cover the whole thing just to be sure.

 

[nealtw]

In your very first picture in POST 1 we can see the water staining all the way to the top of the far wall.

 

[nealtw]

This is why I suggested getting the info from the furnace.

 

[jmr106]

In your very first picture in POST 1 we can see the water staining all the way to the top of the far wall.

There are some areas where the upper and middle blocks were apparently patched over with some kind of cement that looks lighter in that photo. The dirt and water staining and such...that may have been before the time when I took a peek down there and said, "Whoa, just this one little pump for all of that water??" and changed both out. Many times in the past it apparently came up to near top of the bricks, from what I have been told. So it may have been from that. During the times that I have seen it and since I have upgraded the old pump that used to be there, I haven't seen it anywhere near that high. The worst I saw was about a foot deep across the floor when it was just the one old pump. No flooding since. Just high flow if it rains a lot.

What if I dug out a little spot somewhere on the side (like a foot down or something) for both the water heater and machine and checked into getting it horizontal if the model supports it?

 

[slownsteady]

...What if I dug out a little spot somewhere on the side (like a foot down or something) for both the water heater and machine and checked into getting it horizontal if the model supports it?

Sounds like it could help. But make sure you don't create a new water problem. Dig a test hole first.
By the same logic, you could take your basement down a little deeper to create more headroom.....

 

[nealtw]

Are you sure you don't have room for a closet in the house.

 

[jmr106]

Are you sure you don't have room for a closet in the house.

Not particularly. Given how the ones in the past have failed, she doesn't want one in the house.

 

[jmr106]

Sounds like it could help. But make sure you don't create a new water problem. Dig a test hole first.
By the same logic, you could take your basement down a little deeper to create more headroom.....

That is what concerns me. Digging and finding water under that packed dirt. If I could get both out of the hole and raise the hole depth up by feet, I'll still have to keep a pump in there. Not willing to test my theory that the water might be capable of overflowing the bricks if left unchecked. It makes me wonder what they did before a sump was there...was the crawlspace flooding? Then if that entire hole could be filled in, it makes me wonder if water would build up and flow in from outside instead.

 

[nealtw]

I suspect that when the house was built, there was little or no problem with water. The water was always there but you wouldn't know it.
Normally we have a perimeter drain around the outside of the foundation and it is never more than a few inches below the floor water below that level can come and go as it pleases but if the drain is work properly the basement never leaks. The foundation is also water proofed. Any drain system on the outside or inside or like yours, way inside, all the local water table will find it's way to the drain. So in fact you are trying to lower the water table for the whole yard. So the more you can raise the floor, the drain and the pump, the less water you should have to pump.
I suggestion of concrete was more out of habit I think because all our craw spaces have that skim coat. but it would give some one a good working space for working on the furnace and a more finished look.
Even if you can't flip the furnace on it's side I looks like it could be raised some what. Either way you could have some one pull it for a day or two while you do the work and then have it re-installed.
It is just about finding an answer for the water tank.

I can't imagine why it failed, likely just need to be protected from kids or something.
Shell we go back and talk about a small add on for just the tank on the outside of the house. If that was done right, maybe the next if they don't like it could change it out to an on demand unit.