Advice for this nightmare basement?

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That was the intention at one point, but a 1/2 HP pedestal (that's a cast iron one due to the nature of the pit) makes a ton of vibration.

Amazon sells anti-vibration mats for water pumps. This is probably too small to be used on its own, but you can buy enough to fit under it.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002IA0WPI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I don't know exactly what your pump hooks to, but if it hooks to some sort of PVC or ABS then you can use a steel braided flex hose specific for water pumps like this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0068SZLB6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 (the size you need may vary, but this is to give you an idea).
 
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Amazon sells anti-vibration mats for water pumps. This is probably too small to be used on its own, but you can buy enough to fit under it.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002IA0WPI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I don't know exactly what your pump hooks to, but if it hooks to some sort of PVC or ABS then you can use a steel braided flex hose specific for water pumps like this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0068SZLB6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 (the size you need may vary, but this is to give you an idea).


It really isn't the bottom of the pump that vibrates, it is where it attaches to the board. They are attached to the board with something equivalent to heavy gauge metal pipe hanger, because that's about the only thing that can hold onto the 1/2 HP, even though it weights over 30 pounds by itself. The small one doesn't vibrate as much, of course. The big one will lightly move around at the base (sitting on large cement patio brick). Both are attached to 1 1/2 pvc.
 
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There must be a better way to support this than by attaching it to the floor joists??!! Any pump will send a vibration up the boards.

A submersible wouldn't need the joist, which is why I will be changing it in the future. Due to nothing around it to support it and no way of really rigging anything, I don't see any other way. I couldn't just support it across the top of the bricks with boards, for instance. A sump basin would help a lot, of course. I wanted to figure out the best option before putting that in.
 
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I'm holding off on doing any work until I can piece together all of the info that I can about the history of the house and land.

Here are my current thoughts:

I'm thinking of going with the idea of punching holes in the wall, installing dimple board around the inside of the wall and making the whole floor into a french drain underneath. The crushed gravel, then perforated pipes, then more crushed gravel on top. Should I leave a 12" or so space around the edge (meaning put no cement over that part) as if it were a drain at the base of the wall?

I do have a question about the 2.5" or so of cement on top of the upper layer of crushed gravel. How stable will it be with all of that on top of the crushed gravel? Will the perforated pipes eventually get crushed somehow or will the cement eventually break up due to the loose rock surface underneath. This is essentially the same principle as the aforementioned ideas of drilling through the cement floor and having a french drain extending about a foot around the edges, except for it gives a lot more buffer room like we talked about before.

The heating/air machine is elevated, but they elevated it on some kind of foam(?)-like blocks. I have no idea what those are made of. I'm pondering that if I measure the exact height of the foam blocks and try to find some type of regular cement blocks to put underneath, I could slowly interchange those (hopefully) one at a time and slide the other permanent cement blocks underneath. It looks like they just taped together some kind of styrofoam-like blocks, and I know that those won't stay good forever in a wet environment like that.

I also have a question about how a french drain in general works. I had heard of it before, but never really knew much about it. All info that I have researched online seemed useless in actually explaining how it works. I know that obviously the water flows into the crushed gravel and finds its way into the perforated pipe. The pipe is technically open due to the holes everywhere, so I presume that this just provides a more open and less-resistance place for the water to go?

I have seen photos of french drains going into sump basins, but I don't understand how a closed sump basin would allow the water in the loose gravel to go into it. It would just built up outside of the basin among the rocks, wouldn't it? Of course, I could put in one with holes in it that would accept that water, too.

How many pipes would I use and how would I lay them out under the crushed gravel in a full-floor situation like this? Just extend them the length of the floor to the sump? I would probably need a way to chain them together so that they all shared flow and could take it to the sump.

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A few points.
You could have a furnace guy hang the furnace from the floor joists while you do the work.so you can remove the blocks without moving the furnace and then slide in something smaller later like bricks and remove the hangers.
Water runs thru 3/4 crushed gravel like the gravel wasn't there so your plan works with or without the pipe. There are sump boxes made for pipes and boxes made for without pipes.
You will only have pump the water from just below the floor so a pipe would be the better system. the higher you have the pipe the less water you have to pump.
In the picture the green pipe around the perimeter is perforated and it runs right into the box.
See also that they show water below the pipe that they don't worry about, that is because you are not just pumping the water in your basement but water is coming in from all around the house.
And the deeper you go, the more water you have to pump.
Notice that they bend the dimple board and cover the pipe so the concrete does not get into the perforated pipe

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Those plastic / foam blocks may be more water resistant than concrete blocks. May be polyisocyanurate. If they are supporting the weight well, and show no signs of deteriorating, keep them.
 
Those plastic / foam blocks may be more water resistant than concrete blocks. May be polyisocyanurate. If they are supporting the weight well, and show no signs of deteriorating, keep them.

Not to second-guess your comment, but I did get curious about them and tried to figure out what they were. The only gray blocks that I could find that look like that are polystyrene. I was reading that it has a degradation of x years and I think that system is several years old.
 
Not to second-guess your comment, but I did get curious about them and tried to figure out what they were. The only gray blocks that I could find that look like that are polystyrene. I was reading that it has a degradation of x years and I think that system is several years old.

Air Handler Blocks

Lightweight styrofoam block (concrete gray) provides A/C air handler support in attic installations.

Source- http://www.diversitech.com/Product-Sub-Category?id=a04C000000JpCtCIAV
 
Well, I'm back with some interesting information. Haven't been to the courthouse yet (looking like yet again sometime next week) and it is in the 20's outside with a bit of ice/snow. Still not a good time for digging.

I looked around online and found some old topo maps from the early 1900's. One in particular that seemed helpful was 1927-1930. The maps are in a local college map database. A blogger on the site used some type of software and GPS features to overlay the topo map with the street names and such that weren't originally on the topo map. I opened a second window of the modern Google Maps and compared both maps side by side, then took a screenshot of both together for reference. I measured the same distance in the map views and had both maps looking identical in size in order to make an accurate measurement. Plus, the old map had one of those 1 inch = xxx feet deals that helped out.

Near our main intersecting street up the hill, a random branch of water "begins" somehow. You can see it at the bottom of the pic near the "H". Nothing was cut off from view. It literally begins/ends at that point and nothing else is visible on the other side of the main road. It flows down and appears to flow somewhere right underneath our property, perhaps both the front and back yard in a perpendicular curving fashion. Then it appears to continue on down the street, winding back and forth. The house at the end of the street on the corner...we stopped and confirmed that there is an open ditch of sorts. Probably 2 or 3 feet deep and a couple of feet wide, at least. The visible part is straight, but according to the map, it must curve around up under the road and go to the house that I mentioned before that had the little bridge over a ditch in their front yard. From that, the map shows it flowing into the creek that runs right along their yard, just to the right of the bridge. Note that their yard is, of course, elevated above the creek. So that makes it impossible for this to be a branch-off of the creek, particularly since our street has a considerable slope and water doesn't run uphill.

I put my best estimates on the map in red text and symbols based on my measurements with the current and old maps.

Oddly enough, it doesn't flow like I expected. If it does in fact run through our front and back yard, it goes perpendicular under or near our house, whereas I expected it to run side to side through all of the back yards. It obviously doesn't do that, so that must be some other totally different land issue with the neighborhood due to the slight slant of the hill going down the street. I can't stay for sure that it is directly under the house, but even if it is a little off, the way it curves around the area near our house would still suggest that it is at least likely running through our back yard. Per the map, it is definitely flowing perpendicular to the "stream pattern" of water that I see running through the middle of our yard during really heavy downpours.

Any ideas/opinions?



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Had a nasty part of winter storm Jonas, a bit of snow and ice, and temps in the 20's. It started raining around the late afternoon on Thursday, rained through the night into Friday and then turned into sleet and snow Friday night/Saturday morning. So this time we had maybe a day or a little over a day of actual moderate rain. The smaller pump came on and has come on since. This morning, it was coming on about every 30 minutes. Now it is down to about every hour or so. I went down to the crawlspace and only see a very tiny trickle from the far side of the wall, so that's apparently all that is causing it. However, it usually doesn't make the pump come on until it rains for at least two days or more. So that's a bit odd. Yet with all of that discharging, no ice outside on the ground and no issues with the pipe freezing. Even in the 20's outside with heavy winds, the furnace vent pipe keeps it in the 50's in the crawlspace.

Another site that I found that shows flood maps and flood plains shows our property as a "moderate risk" for some reason.

As figured, they started all of this by digging and putting that water heater down there. If it were level and nothing but a crawlspace, I doubt we'd have any issues. Very odd that it comes on only when it rains, however, especially with that underneath.

Here's one more interesting thing in the neighborhood: two houses up on the opposite side of the street, that house has always had a driveway that floods badly when it rains. Between their driveway and the yard next to them, there is a little cement culvert of sorts. It is ground-level with grass growing in it, so it isn't a ditch. It is about two feet wide and has a cement or concrete wall on each side that is about a foot tall. I guess it could have been a culvert that might have filled with dirt over the years or something. Anyway, if it rains for two-three days moderately or even if we have had no rain and get a single terrible thunderstorm, I have seen that little culvert and their driveway combined put out enough muddy water to cover half of the street in half of a foot of water. I have no idea what that is, and their house wouldn't be anywhere near the water source I mentioned above on the map. While none of that water flows into our yard, it rushes down the opposite side of the street and into the sewer. Definitely thousands of gallons per minute. I thought that maybe that might give some type of indication of the neighborhood. Maybe some type of drain? Very odd that it leads to their backyard between the houses, though. Maybe a thousand feet or so down the street on the same side (opposite from us), they have a very similar culvert-like structure that is level with the street, with the same type of walls. It also comes between the two yards and leads to their back yard. I presume this also happens there when it rains. What the heck could these be? I don't know of any on our side of the street, but I guess there could be some. Some type of ancient drain systems?

A big question that I have right now is...we had maybe an inch of rain Friday and Friday night. Way less than we've had a lot of times when the pump came on. It hasn't rained since midnight on Friday. It has been a little over a day and the pump is still averaging a full pump out of 80-90 gallons per hour. I don't understand how that same water from 20+ feet away from the house could be coming back into the basement again when it hasn't rained in a day and the water is most definitely flowing towards the other yard. I even physically moved the flex pipe as an experiment to right next to the fence so that I know for a fact that it was going into the other yard, just to see (note that the neighbor never even goes into his backyard for anything and this is far from his house). Still averaged an hour in between each pump cycle. Granted, there is only a small trickle in the basement that is causing this, but I don't understand.
 
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Great detective work. Looking at the contour lines in the map, and based on info in this thread, I'm going to guess that the waterway was (is?) a seasonal stream that was draining naturally toward the creek. (Seasonal streams only run when there is enough water, and appear as dry beds at other times of the year. I'll go so far as to say that your whole area probably feeds that creek in the days before houses were built there. It's hard to say how that has been reshaped by landscaping and builders trying to make an acceptable lot out of lowlands. It's also possible that the stream is partly subterranean at times. There's a stream not far from my house that runs on the surface for some distance then just disappears into the ground, then reappears about 2 hundred yards further down. You can actually hear it running underground at times. In the spring the stream carries enough water to be visible for it's full length. Unfortunately you really can't beat a high water table under your house, unless you divert it around your house. And even then the saturated ground may just well up at times.
Those concrete channels at the other houses: Most likely that's how those folks are draining their basements. Just like you have a pipe running into your backyard, they are pumping into that ditch and they have enough slope to carry the water out to the street. The concrete channel is probably full of gravel ( maybe a pipe under that) with some soil on top. sounds like a smart solution as long as local regs allow it.
 
Unfortunately you really can't beat a high water table under your house, unless you divert it around your house. And even then the saturated ground may just well up at times.
Those concrete channels at the other houses: Most likely that's how those folks are draining their basements. Just like you have a pipe running into your backyard, they are pumping into that ditch and they have enough slope to carry the water out to the street. The concrete channel is probably full of gravel ( maybe a pipe under that) with some soil on top. sounds like a smart solution as long as local regs allow it.

I have pretty much given up on the idea of any kind of french drain around the house, at like $20K for a perimeter drain that I doubt will improve anything. It would have to go so far underground that it would probably cost double that or more. All outside drain attempts would likely be useless.

I'm pressing on with the goal of turning the whole floor into a french drain when it gets a little warmer. Going to figure out what to do with that water heater. That's currently the main problem. It goes from the floor of the hole to virtually the floor joists above when you count the vent and piping. Probably a 40 or 50 gallon tank. There is absolutely no room for elevation, which is probably why they didn't even put it on a block (they just sat it on the dirt floor). So now I have two options...get a smaller one installed at some point and elevated it at least a foot or more off from the floor or get an on-demand one. Either way, it is going to to have to be elevated to do anything with that. I know nothing about on-demand water heaters, though.

Actually, our city codes do not permit any type of sump discharge into the sewer. The first house (first 2 photos) is vacant and has been for years, though. I doubt that it even has power for a sump pump, unless that ditch runs to the house behind it. Then I'd wonder why the house on the back street was pumping into the street behind them. I just don't physically see how a sump pump discharge could put out that much water in such a short amount of time. For the flow coming out of that during major thunderstorms, it would have to be about 5 sump pumps continuously pumping out water all at once with no break. While neither of these drains affect our property, it makes me curious what others are doing for drainage. Even the lower drain, I remember seeing some water coming out of that even on days when it wasn't raining. Very odd.

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Well if is not just draining their basement, it might be draining their backyard. Water is going to find it's path high to low, so they are just accommodating the flow with a channel. I agree that if your sump is keeping up with the flow, just do what you can to keep the equipment out of harm's way.
On a much bigger scale, if your whole neighborhood has the same problem, maybe you have a case for asking the town to do something.
 
Nice research job.:)
With the help of Google maps , I took a drive thru some neighborhoods. I saw no evidence of a storm drain anywhere. Just the odd scupper that appear to drain street water to a creak or stream near by.
It looks like every homeowner is on there own. Looking at your map, it looks like they just build the house in the path of the water. We can only think it was fine until the basement was dug. So the more you can raise the floor the less water you will have to pump.

Get the make and model of the furnace, many can be laid on their sides and the ducts can be re-worked so everything fits within 30" of the joists.
 
I'm starting to wonder if water isn't backing up so much behind the wall in all of the dirt and taking forever to properly drain. A guess at best, but it doesn't seem to currently drain very well from any other places except for that one behind the water heater area. There is a considerable space between the outside of the wall and the dirt in that area, if I remember correctly. That's probably where a lot of the dirt washed in from on that side. After a few days of rain, sometimes I can see what may be a foot or more of water inside of the bottom of the cinderblocks. I don't want to punch any holes in that wall yet, of course. I have no idea how much water will flow in after I punch through the wall, install dimple board and have everything the way it needs to be on the floor.

The plan is to change that water heater out for a smaller one. That's a 40 gallon water heater according to the paperwork. It is about 6 years old, but the base of it has flooded one time in years passed. Either get it out of the hole completely and over on the dirt somewhere or elevate it at least 2-3 feet in the hole. I doubt that they'll be willing to put it that close to the floor above, if placed on the dirt. Plus, the vent pipe is above where it is in the hole. That would have to bend a lot if placed elsewhere. To elevate it in the hole, I have pondered using a bunch of those cement blocks like the first one at the base under the heating/air system. It would take quite a lot of them, but I'm not convinced that anything else would be strong enough. There's the question, though...do I just put the gravel and cement around it once it is elevated? I'd be concerned about putting everything down and then putting all of that weight on top of the crushed gravel and cement. I guess I would just have to make sure that I sealed around the blocks very well with cement so that water wouldn't come up from around those and onto what would then be the cement.

The heating/air system...going to get the model info off from all of that stuff and research it to see if they can flip it sideways somehow and elevated it some more where it is at.

I'm going to start purchasing stuff a bit at a time soon to start preparing, instead of trying to buy everything all at once. I need to measure the exact length, width and height of the space to get more precise measurements and figure out exactly how much 3/4" crushed gravel I will need for sure.

I'm going to get measurements on the width and length of the existing sump hole. Most of the sump basins seem to be about 24" in diameter at most. While I could use that, they're also only about 18" deep. If I can't find one wide enough, I may have to punch through the bottom somehow and make the sump hole deeper so that it can hold enough water. The 3/4HP main pump that I want to put in requires a minimum sump basin size of 18" X 24", but that isn't anywhere near the capacity of what the makeshift sump holds. The current sump hole isn't 18" deep and it is moreso the width that gives it that capacity, of course. It is maybe 14" deep. I can't find anything wider than 24" and 18" deep. There are some companies that make custom basins. I would actually prefer one a little wider and deeper so that the pump won't have to cycle as often and will still get an optimal amount of water out. That 3/4HP will kick out 4,500GPH at the roughly 9' vertical head. At 75GPM, I think it should be able to hold its own. I'll also have a backup for that in case the main one fails. I'm pretty avid with plumbing and pumps, so all of that will be very easy for me to self-install. In case of a power failure at any point in the future, there will be an automatic Pump Sentry 1622PS inverter system that converts the power from a marine battery or batteries (can chain up to 3 or 4 in series) to power the pump(s). 1600 watts output and up to 14 continuous amps. The reason why I'm picking those iON Storm Pro pumps is because I have found that they use sometimes 1/3 of the amps of most pumps their size, yet put out twice as much water. That 3/4HP runs at just under 8 amps, so a good deep cycle marine battery would last many hours even at that rate. The backup pump may actually be a 1/2HP of the same type of pump at 61GPM. The backup system could probably power both of those every few minutes for at least 2-3 hours if that much pumping was ever needed. I have the formula for calculating how much pump time on the battery types. That 1.5" PVC discharge pipe is going to have to go. 2" is required by the pumps for that kind of capacity. It looks like 2" is the biggest pipe that I can get to go through the walls, so that's going to have to do.

The sheet drain/dimple board: I have no idea about this stuff. So many different brands and types. I presume that I'm probably going to have to cut this down to size, either before or after installing on the wall. Am I correct that this would come in a big roll of some type? It looks like it comes in 4' wide, 6', etc. That seems to be one of the expensive items. I need to figure out the best way to attach it to the wall without having water spraying out from the attachment points.

The gravel would be brought by a local company. The cement...still figuring that one out. That's a heck of a lot of cement. There's no way that a cement truck or anything like that would fit between the back porch and the fence, plus I'd be scared that they might fall through the ground with that much weight (I have actually seen a cement truck fall through the dirt when it drove over an old septic tank).

So far, the next thing is going to have to be the water heater being changed out before I can even have room to do anything. They may surprise me...I'll likely have someone come out and take a peek to see in-person the small space that we're dealing with and see if there is anything at all that we can do to get that water heater over onto the crawlspace dirt. That would be a big relief and leave only the heating/air system to worry about. Plus, where the water heater is right now...if it failed and opened at the seam or something, it would spray almost right into the back of the furnace. It is only about 2.5-3 feet away from the (open) back of the furnace and I can't really do anything about that. It is open to let heat out from the burners or vent them, so I can't really block that or put anything between them. Apparently the last water heater before this one did just that - opened up at the seam and sprayed out a stream of water (didn't go into the furnace by chance) until turned off.

Anyone have any idea if there is some kind of small tank that might fit up there on the dirt somewhere? While there is a lot of space further over in the second picture, they would need to extend the gas pipe, water pipe and vent pipe over there and I'm not sure that it would get enough angle to vent properly. Very tight space and there are pipes of all sorts running everywhere, of course. A lot of that crawlspace is sort of the "uncharted territory"...there are all kinds of things that my father apparently put down there, as well as the old owners left. I haven't exactly explored a lot of it because I have seen the occasional black widow spider down there in a web. They have never had any trouble with them up in the house, however.

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Looking a the total job you have to do, moving the pipes for a new location for the hot water tank is really no big deal. A gas fired tank will still need to be close to where it is for the vent thru the roof.
The more you raise the floor the less water you will have to pump. I can't offer much help on the pump but I do agree on the size of the sump, bigger is better. Have you checked the breaker box to see if you could install an electric tank. They do make an horizontal electric tank, but I don't know what the cost of that would be.
I would think the more you can raise the floor the less you have to worry about pump size.
Do you have a back flow valve on the pump discharge pipe?
 
Looking a the total job you have to do, moving the pipes for a new location for the hot water tank is really no big deal. A gas fired tank will still need to be close to where it is for the vent thru the roof.
The more you raise the floor the less water you will have to pump. I can't offer much help on the pump but I do agree on the size of the sump, bigger is better. Have you checked the breaker box to see if you could install an electric tank. They do make an horizontal electric tank, but I don't know what the cost of that would be.
I would think the more you can raise the floor the less you have to worry about pump size.
Do you have a back flow valve on the pump discharge pipe?


I wish I could raise that floor by feet, but unless I can find out for sure that I can turn that system sideways, I'll be limited to that 1 foot or so that I can build the floor up to the bottom of the system. I will need to find something more permanent (than those syrofoam blocks) that can hold up that system, as well. Anything that is put in there before I put down the gravel, pipes and cement around those areas...will probably be stuck there until the entire system is taken up to be replaced.

I added another photo of the water heater vent. It actually looks like the current vent is going sideways towards the side of the hole. The water heater is almost next to the edge of the hole as it is, so I need to go back down there and get some more pics and see where the actual vent goes vertical. I know where it vents out onto the roof and I see the heat/steam on cold days. It apparently vents fairly well, but what the heck? Did they even install that right? It looks like there is no rise on the angle of that vent pipe, unless it is just the angle of the photo. Still, even if pipes could be ran to the dirt and one could be put there...what kind of tank water heater could I put there that would be functional enough? At that point, there might be 2.5' from the dirt up to the floor joists.

I looked at the electric ones. The decent ones seem to be about $1,000. They have cheaper ones, but they literally put out a gallon or two per minute of water based on what I read in the specs. Then I saw some other ones that put out a decent amount comparable to a larger tank water heater, but needed something like 26KW to power. That pretty much killed it for me. Apparently they need their own dedicated circuit with about as many amps as everything inside and outside of the house combined uses. There is a 100 amp breaker, but I think the clothes dryer runs at 30 amps on its own dedicated circuit. I think the central system is also somewhere around 30 amps based on the power box outside and has its own circuit. Both pumps combined are about 10 amps. That leaves around 30 amps left over for everything else in the house. In the case that all of the big things are on around the same time, I'd rather not take the chance on an electric.

I do have silent check valves on both pumps and they work very well (clear ones so that you can see them working). Water definitely isn't flowing back in. It hasn't rained in two days and still every 3-4 hours the pump comes on. It is getting less and less, but I remember watching it earlier in the yard today and thinking, "There is no way that is flowing back into the basement from 20-25 feet away." So that part...I'm not sure about. It is getting less and less with time, so apparently it must be draining okay.

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Where does the furnace vent to, Silly me I assumed the two would join and go up fairly close to where they are.
Tankless hot water, we see these in some big houses now, supposed to be cheaper to operate and some brands can be installed on the outside of the exterior wall.
This one could go in the crawlspace against the foundation the exhaust is just pvc pipe.
http://kirklandheating.com/kirkland-water-heaters/noritz-nrc1111-tankless-gas-water-heater/
 
As the plan is to eventually sell the home in today’s cautious society. 99.9% of the homes bought are financed and everyone is being required to have everything inspected and reports made out. required by banks and required by most homeowners.

The reason I was able to buy a fairly nice house with good bones in a great community was because it was up for short sale for $25k. The bank required cash payment and stipulated as is. There was enough wrong that it would and did scare off potential buyers for several years.

To the OP here keep in mind there are ways to pump any amount of water away from a dwelling and if the prospective buyers home inspector goes into a crawlspace basement housing heating equipment he expects to see a sump pump, for a certain amount of occasional water that could find the area. If he hears water running after a heavy rain he might look at that as normal and look at the flow and the discharge and even time the cycle or take a guess at it if it looks like it might take an hour to fill up again. If he goes in and it hasn’t just rained and he hears it running at a constant flow he may time it reporting the pump discharger 15 gal/min ran for 10 minutes off for 10 minutes and again cycled. He might recommend a second backup pump in that case and advise of the associated cost of pumping this much water. It may or may not be a show stopper to the sale, depending on what the housing market is like in the area and how desirable a location your house is in and it may just reflect in the offer they would make.

If you were planning on living there yourself and were ok with whatever solution you come up with that’s one way to look at it, but as the plan is to fix to sell try and keep in mind what the sale process is going to be like. The house we bought for 25k we got because I told them it has these problems and there are dozens of others close by with less problems. Housing for the most part today is a buyers’ market.
 

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