nealtw
Contractor retired
I would talk to the permit dept. and get the requirements and she might feel better about it. The old one must of been against code but these things are in houses all the time..
Advice for this nightmare basement?
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I would talk to the permit dept. and get the requirements and she might feel better about it. The old one must of been against code but these things are in houses all the time..
If I changed the water heater out for a short gas model (probably will be a bit hard to find) and could by some means get the heating/air system horizontal and out of the hole; what are the odds that there will still be issues with water in the hole if I raised the floor up by about 2-3 feet with crushed gravel? I'd still stick a sump basin in there using the method of a basin with holes in it to gather the water from the surrounding gravel (if it got that high to need to be pumped. Would I still need to cement over the gravel? Part of me reasons that if the floor was raised at least halfway, the water issue wouldn't be as bad. The other part of me reasons that...filling it with something like crushed gravel would be sort of like adding rocks in a glass and filling it with water. The gravel would displace what was once space and cause the water to probably build up rather quickly among the gravel, I would think. Even with less water, it might seem like more. Or am I looking at it incorrectly? Presumably, I wouldn't need any type of drain pipes if a sump was installed directly into the gravel with holes large enough to let water through, but not let the gravel in.
The one that was in the kitchen when they got the house was against code. The other 2 or 3 or whatever it was in years passed were either flooded and/or old and needed to be replaced. The water heater that opened up at the seam and sprayed out a stream of water years ago...not sure what happened with that one. It was apparently fairly old, but the plumbers that installed the new one noted how that isn't normal at all.
The one that was in the kitchen when they got the house was against code. The other 2 or 3 or whatever it was in years passed were either flooded and/or old and needed to be replaced. The water heater that opened up at the seam and sprayed out a stream of water years ago...not sure what happened with that one. It was apparently fairly old, but the plumbers that installed the new one noted how that isn't normal at all.
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nealtw
Contractor retired
One other thought. Just looked at the photo of the new roof, I think we should be able to see the B vent for the furnace if not both. 2 ft above anything with in 10 ft, I think. So unless they are right at the back of the house.
nealtw
Contractor retired
Yes the more you raise the floor the higher you can set the pump. I don't think it is a 1 for on 1 calculation so if you raise it half way you might only have to pump 1/3 or 1/4 the water.
If you could raise it above the high water table the pump would only be needed for extreme flood situations. If you dig a hole near but out side the house you might get an idea what the high water level is but it will still be effected by the fact you are still pumping. The only way you would know for sure what that level is would be to let it flood, not a good idea.
If you are going to all this work you will want to do some of the easy stuff to make it look like you have looked after all the details so I thing I would plan on covering all the dirt with poly. But poly won't work all that well for the gravel any one wants to get in there and work on something. You could cover the gravel with something like dimple board and set a few 16 x 16 pavers for stepping on..
If it looks finished you won't have an inspector digging a few inches into the gravel and finding water. The water will be there but if it is all sealed up it is non of his business.
I have looked for a short gas tank, I think there no such thing.
If you did dig a hole in the yard, that is not the kind of thing you want to leave open. You did a hole you plant a piece of 4 inch perforated pipe and back fill the hole with gravel and cap a piece of 2" white pipe on both ends mark heights on the white pipe and wait for it to rain , the white pipe will float. That would give you some idea of how high you need to come up
If you could raise it above the high water table the pump would only be needed for extreme flood situations. If you dig a hole near but out side the house you might get an idea what the high water level is but it will still be effected by the fact you are still pumping. The only way you would know for sure what that level is would be to let it flood, not a good idea.
If you are going to all this work you will want to do some of the easy stuff to make it look like you have looked after all the details so I thing I would plan on covering all the dirt with poly. But poly won't work all that well for the gravel any one wants to get in there and work on something. You could cover the gravel with something like dimple board and set a few 16 x 16 pavers for stepping on..
If it looks finished you won't have an inspector digging a few inches into the gravel and finding water. The water will be there but if it is all sealed up it is non of his business.
I have looked for a short gas tank, I think there no such thing.
If you did dig a hole in the yard, that is not the kind of thing you want to leave open. You did a hole you plant a piece of 4 inch perforated pipe and back fill the hole with gravel and cap a piece of 2" white pipe on both ends mark heights on the white pipe and wait for it to rain , the white pipe will float. That would give you some idea of how high you need to come up
nealtw
Contractor retired
The only thing I have found is it should not share a space in a closet, so a closet built just for the tank??????????
Out of curiosity, why have the short gas models been discontinued? These were apparently called lowboys. They have them in electric still. The electric reviews are generally unsatisfied and say that their bills increased considerably.
nealtw
Contractor retired
The only place I have seen small tanks used is small commercial shops with an office, often built to fit the first tenant. Cheap and easy, no gas line, no vent and easy to move. Maybe just didn't sell enough.
nealtw
Contractor retired
nealtw
Contractor retired
I think one of these hung on the outside of the house, say outside the kitchen or the bathroom, would not only solve your problem but with their higher efficiency , it would add to the selling features. That is if you can flip or raise the furnace.
The electric one? The breaker and wiring would need to be changed.
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slownsteady
Well-Known Member
I was going to suggest an Amtrol Hot water Maker, which is zoned off the boiler. But in your case, you would have to have a hot water baseboard system, which means changing everything. If you are thinking of replacing the heat system you have now, then I think it's a great option.
I think that system is about 2 years old at most. The installation company apparently didn't try to install anything that would get it out of the hole. It is my understanding that they said they could elevate it as much as possible (like it is now) and didn't even suggest a horizontal system.
slownsteady
Well-Known Member
hacks...........................
What are the chances of using a smaller tank meant for a commercial setting, in a residential home? If even available, I'm sure they are likely quite hard to find. Might not be code acceptable. A company probably wouldn't be willing to put such a thing into a residential property.
My options seem to be very limited.
1. An external on-demand that would cost thousands to run new pipe, install forced venting, upgrade gas line, etc. I researched and about $3000 installed is a very average number. However, the breaker can't handle the amps for that and would likely need to be changed and require upgraded wiring. I'm 100% sure that the breaker can't handle an electric, unless they make a small electric tank that uses like 15 amps max. I doubt that.
2. Raise the floor and keep both the water heater and system in it. Get the shortest gas water heater available and elevate it on something unknown at the time that will last a long time. If I filled in the hole and cemented it first, even with 2.5" of cement to sit on top of crushed gravel it whatever, eventually that weight will crack the cement when the rocks shift or sink a bit. Elevating it and raising the floor afterwards would leave the open space around it where whatever was elevating it would still be on the original floor, even if I put the gravel and cement around it.
3) Put a small attachment outside for the water heater. Lots of insulation and extra pipes run. Probably will look odd and a cost a lot to build and insulate. Possible code violation and loss of heat, water pipes susceptible to freezing, etc. Furnace either raised or moved to the side. Possibly neither can be done. Still checking on that.
My options seem to be very limited.
1. An external on-demand that would cost thousands to run new pipe, install forced venting, upgrade gas line, etc. I researched and about $3000 installed is a very average number. However, the breaker can't handle the amps for that and would likely need to be changed and require upgraded wiring. I'm 100% sure that the breaker can't handle an electric, unless they make a small electric tank that uses like 15 amps max. I doubt that.
2. Raise the floor and keep both the water heater and system in it. Get the shortest gas water heater available and elevate it on something unknown at the time that will last a long time. If I filled in the hole and cemented it first, even with 2.5" of cement to sit on top of crushed gravel it whatever, eventually that weight will crack the cement when the rocks shift or sink a bit. Elevating it and raising the floor afterwards would leave the open space around it where whatever was elevating it would still be on the original floor, even if I put the gravel and cement around it.
3) Put a small attachment outside for the water heater. Lots of insulation and extra pipes run. Probably will look odd and a cost a lot to build and insulate. Possible code violation and loss of heat, water pipes susceptible to freezing, etc. Furnace either raised or moved to the side. Possibly neither can be done. Still checking on that.
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slownsteady
Well-Known Member
4) Forget the new concrete floor, improve your sump pumps and extend the drain pipe for them as far away as possible. Gravel seems to make some sense, but the net gain doesn't add up, IMO
The pumps are the easy part. The discharge pipe...I wish I could run that thing a hundred feet from the house, but I can't. At the back of the yard are very large pine trees that are at risk of losing their ground if I discharged that much water in the sloped area back there. Currently it discharges as far as it can be ran, 20-25 feet from the house.
It really isn't about just trying to add value to the house. I'd "like" to do that as a benefit (who wouldn't?), but it is more so to take care of the water problem for the remainder of the time. I would fill it half full of gravel and put in a proper sump even if no equipment was in the hole. It would still help the water flow to not be as bad and make it look a little better.
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KULTULZ
JACK of All Trades ~ MASTER of NONE
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I have just recently became aware of TRACTOR SUPPLY (moving to rural area). You would think that they would sell quality goods (if there are any left), but mostly they handle CHI-COM junk... :hide:
HARBOR FREIGHT is another great source of junk.
HARBOR FREIGHT is another great source of junk.
I like the iON company, particularly the Storm Pro series. This would be the main pump: http://www.sumppumpsdirect.com/iON-Products-BA-75M-Sump-Pump/p2879.html. It is meant for a harsh environment with high flows and small solids, if necessary.
The backup looks just like it, but 1/2HP version.
They are designed to pump as much water as most high-end submersibles, yet use half the starting and running amps than most. The main one would run on just under 8 amps at around 4,500GPH. A comparable pump in other popular brands can be around 20 running amps for the same amount of flow. The marine battery system that will serve as a backup will power the main and backup pump together, if needed. Otherwise, with the lower amps, one marine battery of high capacity could power that main pump every few minutes for nearly an entire day. Batteries can be added and chained if needed. Automatic system that recharges by itself and switches over when there is a loss of power. Rare for us, but in central Georgia we have had tropical storms go over us and flood lots of areas. Or, when it rains a lot, trees can down lines and it might take hours to get power restored. That's another reason why I like those particular pumps. Very good battery backup life, yet with main pumps and not those silly 12v cheap backup pumps. Plus, they keep the regular power bill down even if pumping for days. Good reviews from everyone that bought then. The float switch can be changed to an electrode version without a float in order to get around the half of a foot or so differential and have it pump an entire basin out at once, instead of constantly coming on pumping out every half of a foot of water.
I would order from Sump Pumps Direct. They are a division of Power Equipment Direct. They have amazing service and actually know their products. I have dealt with them before.
I mused about the pumps at home improvement stores, checking then just out of curiosity. They all carry the cheapest, smaller pumps like Flotec, which has a horrible reputation for breaking. Usually they have nothing over 1/2HP and sometimes not above 1/3 HP.
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slownsteady
Well-Known Member
Are those trees in a basin? Just because it's flatter doesn't mean it's flat. It looks like you have slope all the way down to the 'official' creek, based on the contour lines on that map a few pages back. Extend the discharge all the way to the back of your property (further, if there is a buffer between properties) in the most down hill direction. Or turn the pipe towards the street like your neighbors do.
