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Adding a new 15A circuit to this panel

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dsteinhorn

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There may be a grounding wire and grounding rod (or tied into rebar when foundation was laid) at the meter outside. That was my point. The large aluminum conductor is the common Neutral conductor
 

1HandyWoman

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There may be a grounding wire and grounding rod (or tied into rebar when foundation was laid) at the meter outside. That was my point. The large aluminum conductor is the common Neutral conductor
There can NOT be a grounding wire or rod outside, it is impossible. If there were, since the neutrals and grounds are both bonded together in the panel box and therefore leave the panel box bonded together there could be no way to ever separated those paths on the outside? Impossible.

So either the neutrals and grounds are both grounded outside (I have read that many years ago all neutrals were "sent back" to the elec utility through the ground but I dont think that happens any longer (but hey what do I know.... not much) OR they both travel back on the neutral wire (grounds and neutrals).

Either way it seems very strange and "not right" but heck what do I know (not much it seems).
 

slownsteady

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It seems, at this point, that on-line advice can not help answer questions that a qualified electrician should answer on-site. The concerns here should be addressed with a licensed electrician.
 

1HandyWoman

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It seems, at this point, that on-line advice can not help answer questions that a qualified electrician should answer on-site. The concerns here should be addressed with a licensed electrician.
Well I never knew this site to be highly censored but I guess that is just the way things go now a days.
 

slownsteady

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So the question brewing in my head:

1HW...no microwave, no smartphone, EMF filter.......What's up??
 

1HandyWoman

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So the question brewing in my head:

1HW...no microwave, no smartphone, EMF filter.......What's up??
Whats up? EMFs harm everyBODY. I am maybe more sensitive than you are. I am willing to do something to reduce the harm. That is why I have no smartphone, no microwave, no wifi, etc. Who do you think would spend money for an emf filter but one who knew they were being harmed by them?
 

Eddie_T

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There can NOT be a grounding wire or rod outside, it is impossible. If there were, since the neutrals and grounds are both bonded together in the panel box and therefore leave the panel box bonded together there could be no way to ever separated those paths on the outside? Impossible.

So either the neutrals and grounds are both grounded outside (I have read that many years ago all neutrals were "sent back" to the elec utility through the ground but I dont think that happens any longer (but hey what do I know.... not much) OR they both travel back on the neutral wire (grounds and neutrals).

Either way it seems very strange and "not right" but heck what do I know (not much it seems).
The neutral doesn't go back any farther than the center tap of the transformer and grounding is just for safety. Nothing in the house requires a ground to operate except for ground fault devices. My panel with bonded neutral and ground is grounded to a copper water pipe but the neutral at the meter box outside is grounded to a ground rod. The neutral current flows to the transformer and not into the ground (unless there is a ground fault).
 

1HandyWoman

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The neutral doesn't go back any farther than the center tap of the transformer and grounding is just for safety.
Ok but if they are both bonded together than they can not go to separate places.

Anyhow, it doesn't really matter (other than I have learned a thing or two) because I finally talked to the tech support of the filter manufacturer and he assured me that YES it is because the neutral and ground are bonded is why my filter is not working. He said they use the neutral to return the electricity after it has been "cleaned" back into the house.

Wow does that make any sence especially after being told by Eddie_T that the neutral only goes back to the transformer????

So now I am TOTALLY confused. But tech support is going to take my filter back and give me a special filter that they manufacture for panel configurations like mine (neutral and ground bonded).

So I think I got a "fix" even though I am totally confused as to how any of this mysterious electricity works.

Thanks everybody for your thougtful input and trying your darndest to edumacate me :)
 

Eddie_T

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The emf filter people may be pulling your leg as all main panels in the US have neutrals bonded to ground if they meet code.

Here's a link that may help you;
 

1HandyWoman

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The emf filter people may be pulling your leg as all main panels in the US have neutrals bonded to ground if they meet code.

Here's a link that may help you;

Excellent explaination and was my basic understanding of how residential elec services worked (except I never knew ground and neutral could /would be bonded together).

Now is this filter company lying to me? IDK but they have been in business for many years and have a good reputation so, why lie? If they sold an expensive peice of equipment that did not work at all, they would have gone out of business years ago and would have been exposed as snake oil salesmen. So I can not explain it, or their responce to me.

I guess I will just return the filter to them and "hope" for the best.
 

Eddie_T

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He said they use the neutral to return the electricity after it has been "cleaned" back into the house.
This statement bothers me. If the emf filter people don't understand basic electricity how can they clean it? The only current that flows in branch circuit neutrals is from the devices plugged into the receptacles. If the emf filter causes current flow it is merely from the electricity it consumes as with all other devices. Electricity is not recirculated through house wiring, bonding at the panel has no effect on neutral currents. I would like to see a schematic of an emf filter, I am suspecting they are snake oil.
 

afjes_2016

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.

Eddie_T
Honestly I quite felt the same way to a degree but felt best to keep my mouth shut.

1HandyWoman
To put it simply think of the flow of electricity going thru your house like the plumbing in your house.
Current comes in from the utility pole on the hot and returns on the neutral out to the utility pole.
Compare it to water coming into your house in the water line and going back out in your sewer line.

"Me Thinks" this company makes money on the worries of persons concerned with EMF.
I can understand that to a degree. My 12 year old cousin many years back ended up with "Hodgkin's lymphoma" his parents (my aunt and uncle) where totally convinced that it was because they lived too close to utility high voltage power-lines going by their house.

Electrons have a mind of their own only to a certain degree :)

.
 
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slownsteady

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The part that puzzles me is that the device is only on one circuit (branch). How does that filter electricity on the other branches? Wouldn't it need to be upstream of the main breaker?
 

1HandyWoman

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To put it simply think of the flow of electricity going thru your house like the plumbing in your house.
Current comes in from the utility pole on the hot and returns on the neutral out to the utility pole.
Compare it to water coming into your house in the water line and going back out in your sewer line.
Yes Afjes I agree and understand what you are saying. With your analogy one can see that if the electricity, after being "cleaned", was not returned somehow back into the house the entire 240 V would be "used up" and sent into the sewer (in your analogy).

The part that puzzles me is that the device is only on one circuit (branch). How does that filter electricity on the other branches? Wouldn't it need to be upstream of the main breaker?
Slownsteady, that certainly would make more sence and infact when I first read about the filter I presumed that was how it was installed (until I found out differently). BUT the company states that all devices (like HVAC) that is attached to both the A / B legs as well as any circuit on the A or on the B legs will be "cleaned". But I cannot see how that could work.

I can only say that the company has a good rating and I cannot find but one complaint againt them and that customer was eventually given their money back (or so the complaint says). If this was snake oil, and I have seem many instances of such, I would expect to see all kinds of complaints all over the internet. This company has been in business for over a decade and has been bulding these boxes for many of those years. I will just "hope" and wait and see if this "new" box works as expected. I will absolutely post an update once I recieve and install the replacement box.
 

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