Advice for this nightmare basement?

[slownsteady]

Do you have city water & sewer? I was assuming the septic tank - if you found one - was abandoned. I was thinking that might be the mystery "tin" as old septic tanks were often metal. An old tank probably is not contributing to the water problem, if sealed properly.
This is a tough thread to follow because the Orig post raises so many questions. Is the stream/creek there or not? Where is the water coming from? Where do we want it to go? Is the surface runoff returning back into the house? If we don't answer those question (and others?) then we can only patch the problem in the 'basement'.

 

[nealtw]

There has been an abundance of info here for jmr106 to deal with.
Questions I still have and not sure if we covered them already.
Subdivisions around here in the suburb of that age had ditch on both side of the road, if that is still there or if it has been piped and covered over, water could be piped or pumped to there.
When creaks and streams are re-routed, if not visable it may be piped thru the area and it would have an easement. This would show up on the city plan as well as any storm system at the road.
Sometimes you have go into historical site plans to find out what was happening 70 years ago.
There are people at city hall that are aware of broblem areas and should be will to help with suggestion on best moves forward.
Moving water away from the house on the outside is always the best way and cheapest way to solve water problems.
The problem here is the hole in the basement is lower that the foundation so a typical perimeter drain won't work so any trench will have to be a feet away from the house so that the foundation is not undermined.

 

[jmr106]

Do you have city water & sewer? I was assuming the septic tank - if you found one - was abandoned. I was thinking that might be the mystery "tin" as old septic tanks were often metal. An old tank probably is not contributing to the water problem, if sealed properly.
This is a tough thread to follow because the Orig post raises so many questions. Is the stream/creek there or not? Where is the water coming from? Where do we want it to go? Is the surface runoff returning back into the house? If we don't answer those question (and others?) then we can only patch the problem in the 'basement'.

The house has been on city water and sewer for decades. Probably 4 or 5 decades. My parents bought it in '79. If there is a septic tank out there, I'm not sure if previous owners filled it properly. It may be filling up with water, have cracks in the side of the walls of it, etc. The water flowing into the basement doesn't smell, however. A house up the street had a septic tank recently (you could smell it and obviously it was backing up because a neighbor next to them said they had way too many people living in that one house).

I have been unable to dig for a septic tank yet in the yard (very cold weather) or dig to find the mysterious tin cover of whatever it is.

The stream/creek is kind of an up in the air thing. It is visible 14 houses away in the back yard of the house on a perpedicular street. Using a map puts it in direct line with ours. I presume that it is flowing downhill towards house where it is visible, as our street has a bit of a hill on it that slowly progresses. I can't see it curving in this residential neighborhood. Satellite views show nothing due to the massive amount of trees in the area. It goes under the actual street somehow and straight into someone else's front yard on the opposite side of the street (they have a little bridge and everything there over it) and it apparently continues straight from there. I have no idea where it goes or where it comes from. It isn't on any map, however. The frustrating thing is that there is another creek about 100 feet away from the creek in question. It flows into a major river and I could trace that one everywhere on a map. The one that I believe may run through the yards isn't on anything that I can find, yet it is physically there.

I grabbed this map from Google Maps (street names blotted out) to show the location of our house vs the location of the creek in the back yard of the house on the perpendicular street. A maps measurement shows about 1,090 feet from the corner of their yard to the back of ours. It is an uncanny alignment with our yard and neighbor's yards presuming it runs straight.

I should note that I live in Decatur, Georgia. A smaller city about 15 minutes outside of Atlanta, Georgia.

 

[jmr106]

There has been an abundance of info here for jmr106 to deal with.
Questions I still have and not sure if we covered them already.
Subdivisions around here in the suburb of that age had ditch on both side of the road, if that is still there or if it has been piped and covered over, water could be piped or pumped to there.
When creaks and streams are re-routed, if not visable it may be piped thru the area and it would have an easement. This would show up on the city plan as well as any storm system at the road.
Sometimes you have go into historical site plans to find out what was happening 70 years ago.
There are people at city hall that are aware of broblem areas and should be will to help with suggestion on best moves forward.
Moving water away from the house on the outside is always the best way and cheapest way to solve water problems.
The problem here is the hole in the basement is lower that the foundation so a typical perimeter drain won't work so any trench will have to be a feet away from the house so that the foundation is not undermined.

Yeah, there is so much info and so much to deal with. A neighbor up the street has lived in the neighborhood since the 40's and has told us various things about the houses and such over the years. She apparently came down when they were working and doing various stuff to this house. The former owners were pretty shoddy in their work, did things halfway, etc. I have had to go through and fix a lot of stuff. This water problem has been the biggest headache of all, mainly because I'm not sure how to fix what is wrong; or exactly what is actually wrong yet. Given that this problem obviously started when they put the water heater in the basement and then years later was escalated when the heating/air system was put in the basement, digging the hole obviously started everything. The reason why they did it was because the Federal Housing Authority forced the previous owners to remove that water heater from the kitchen and put it into the basement before the FHA would approve the mortgage loan to my parents.

I'm not sure if there are any old drains by the road and such. I guess I need to take a trip to the city hall and city clerk office and see if they have any old maps where I can find out what was done. If they covered over a stream or creek with an easement and it was causing problems with water flow in our yard, is that something that the city would have to pay for? Even if there is a creek or stream nearby, I'm not sure what to actually "do" about it.

It isn't a constant flow problem. The basement and hole are dry most of the time and even when it rains for a day or two, the pump doesn't always need to come on. It can rain all day sometimes, or even moderately for a couple of days and the pump won't come on. There may be little to no water flow in the basement. When it rains fairly heavy for 2-3 days, that's when the pump comes on and keeps coming on for 2-3 days after, getting more and more infrequent with time. When there is a "flash flood warning" and such, that's when it comes on a lot. It is also when that stream of water is visibly deep in the yard, in a particular place. I'm attaching an estimated area drawn in of where that water flow shows up in heavy rains. I'll see if I can find the actual photos that I took previously during an absolute downpour thunderstorm. It was like we literally had a creek running through the back yard and from yard to yard, right in line with that area. Probably 6" or more deep. It wasn't flowing up towards the house, but stayed in that area. Yet there isn't really a slope or ditch-like area there. It is pretty flat and just grass. That area is maybe 25 feet or so from the back of the house. It is also right in line with the only place to discharge - a safe distance from the trees and yet a distance away from the house to keep it from going back into the basement.

 

[nealtw]

An easement is an area in your yard where the city says you can not build because the may need to work in that area or that may need it for a future road or what ever like a pipe.
Your not looking for blaming someone, you just want to dig in and find any info that may help, sometimes they will have old plans like where the septic tank and feild were.
Just a thought but if the feild was left in place and the water could track back up the old lines it would have a direct path to the house.
I still think the city people are the one to ask about suggestions and I am not sure I would be afraid to give the trees the extra water, not that I know anything about that.

 

[jmr106]

I think He would agree about the funace not being under the house.
If the furnace wasn't there or was a horizontal one the ground level down there could be brought up past the water level.
If you knew the path of the water if it is like a stream, you could re-route it around the house.
Even fixed this could be a hard sell.

That is a plain a/c unit outside. That's about the smallest furnace possible for the system inside of the basement. It previously had a heat pump system that was similar in size, actually. The furnace was still the same size in the basement. When that was installed, it was elevated on blocks because the previous one flooded due to a power failure (have since found a solution for the power failure). Another room "could" be built on the back of the house. The problem is the same, though. Sure, the water heater could go elsewhere or be turned into a smaller electric one (not sure if the breaker could handle that). The system...there's nowhere to put it. The vents are in the floor of every room, so the system in the basement couldn't go in the attic. That's too much weight up there, anyway. Also, even if another room was built...the original foundation of the house would need to be punched through in order to run the HVAC pipes through the bottom of the house. That's why they didn't want to do an external system to begin with. Plus, it would have cost probably 5 times as much. I wish I could just pull both of those out, fill that in and be done with it. It was a stupid idea for them to do that.

 

[slownsteady]

Thanks for the additional info. It really is a puzzle, but I think there are some clues in here.

The frustrating thing is that there is another creek about 100 feet away from the creek in question. It flows into a major river and I could trace that one everywhere on a map. The one that I believe may run through the yards isn't on anything that I can find, yet it is physically there.

Nature is the best judge in this case. Water cuts it's own path and always flows downhill. It is unlikely that there would be two natural streams so close to each other...unless your area slopes in two different directions. My thought is that there is some sort of storm-water management channel that you are seeing. You might even find a storm-water basin a few blocks further down.Two questions about the one that we've been talking about: Does it always have water in it? And does it look man-made?

The extra info about when your basement floods is also helpful. Based on that, i would have to agree with earlier posts about moving the unit to an out-building. the cost of drilling thru the foundation to run your ducts will be minimal compared with trying to defeat the saturated ground and/or the high water table that you obviously have in your area. If you go that route, then you don't necessarily have to do anything with your basement, as that whole basement area could fill and feed the pumps without any urgency.

you could, however, help the ground in your backyard to handle the water better by providing drainage. You could either do it by burying a perforated pipe with drainage rock around it, or you could make a shallow, rock-lined channel where the water flows (think japanese garden with ornate foot bridge). Unfortunately, i can't answer where that water discharges, cuz it sounds like it ends up in your neighbor's yard either way.

Just a bunch of random thoughts:2cents:

 

[nealtw]

The idea is to come up with 2 or 3 plans that would solve the problem at the lowest cost and make the house more sellable. With that in mind it is good to kick around ideas, evan if they sound silly when first said out loud.

1. Something close to what I proposed in post 28, may need a little refining. Pros, reasonably cheap and could be done by home owner. Cons, Pump still running more than what one would like and a full explaination would have to be made to buyer.
2. Trenching around the house to devert the water away from the house. Pros, stop water from getting under house, maybe. Cons, no garrentee a good dump stie can be found, will like still require number 1. to be done, woork will likely be done by contractor.
3. Change the furnace to a horizontal furnace that would fit in the space of the origanal crawlspace look at changing hot water to instant hot water, backfill crawl space, raise pump to higher level to protect the furnace just incase, although not likely needed. Pros the hole in the crawl space is backfilled and water issue solved, work under house can be done by home owner. Cons, cost of new water heater and furnace, closet space for water hearter on outside wall will have to be found unless one can go on the outside where you live?
4. Figure out what would be the most cost efective way to do the fix and with full discloser and discount to the buyer as buyer may want to make changes anyway and all the work done might just be a waste. Pros Homework only no work has to get done Cons discount will be larger than one might think upfront, limited number of buyers will be interested.

Get the make and model of the furnace, I think some can be converted to hoizontal.

 

[jmr106]

So here's my follow-up questions that maybe someone could answer, after thinking over all of the above that we have talked about:

Is it physically and practically possible to have someone build a wood room of some sort outside of the back center of the house and have the water heater and furnace/blower moved out there into it? Or would it be better to just buy a pre-built shed from somewhere and make the necessary modifications (punching through the back wall of it to run ducts, pipes and wiring)? Would the water heater get too cold/hot or need extra insulation around it inside of the building? I'm not sure if either of those being in such a place outside of the house would violate city codes. The house next door to us has a crawlspace and they had this little wooden structure that was built onto the back of the house somehow. The water heater was apparently in that.

Provided that a building could be built or purchased for such a thing, they would have to punch through the foundation (big rocks with mortar) of the house to make room for the air ducts. Would that cause a sagging problem or destroy the integrity of the house? We have those big 1 foot diameter ducts running everywhere in the basement. I don't know how they would even fit all of that into a big hole if one were to be made.

Does anyone know if a furnace and blower system like that could function in a building outside? Currently, there is a 1" or so pvc pipe that runs into the condensation drain. That outputs heat into the basement in the winter and keeps all pipes under the house warm and also the system keeps itself warm in doing so.

Then there's the basement itself. If the water heater and machines were gone completely, I have that big open hole. If it were filled in, would all of the bricks have to be removed? If they were left, would they continue saturating the dirt filled in, even if it was level with the rest of the basement dirt? Even the top of the bricks is about 1+ foot below actual ground level outside and the rest of the crawlspace inside. Would we still require a sump pump? Obviously, it would take an enormous amount of dirt to fill that space just to the top of the bricks themselves. About another foot to get to the actual crawlspace dirt level. Part of me is scared that water might be forced up through the new dirt somehow and flood the crawlspace.

As far as the code regulations, I'm not even sure who to ask that question to in my city to see if that would be permitted to put the water heater and furnace outside or run pipes through the house foundation. There are just so many things that each have their own issue to address. Getting both out of the hole seems to be the best and cheapest option, while also being more permanent. I think the open hole and pump would likely have to stay (at least, until another buyer fixed it). That would be way too much work to try to fill it in and avoid having a pump. However, the pump would also have that extra room for any water that it needed a few minutes to catch up to. That sure wouldn't help any moisture issues in and under the house, though.

A little extra background info on that bricked hole: My mother has told me the horror stories where my father had gone down to the basement many times when I was young and found that the pump had either been overtopped, stopped working or the power was lost for a while and caused it to flood. They had only a single 1/3HP pedestal pump down there before. He never even thought to add a second pump for some reason. From what I was told, the water came almost all the way up to the top of the bricks quite a few times. Mathematically, that's about 1,300 gallons or so all in one spot. So apparently when left unchecked, it isn't just a matter of water limiting itself and flooding a little bit. After a 3-day rain system, I have calculated that in a 24 hour period there is upwards of 6,000 total gallons pumped out. That's a scary amount of water flow, which is what makes me wonder about something else causing it.

Time will tell...today I'm going to see if I can call around to the city clerk and city hall and see who I need to talk to for maps of any changes to the area. I'm hoping they'll give me some of copies of them.

 

[nealtw]

The building would have to be an addition to the house, I doubt it would be cost effective but that would have to be worked out. The best way to do that would be at the door in you photo. As there is a header over the door already and if the new hole was cut under the door for the pipes you would not be weakining the foundation. Cutting the hole would be a question for a concrete coring and cutting company if they will cut stone.
If you built a room about 6x6 you would have room for a halway into the house and a 6 ft closet for furnace and water tank. Whether the furnace would work from there efficiency is a question for the pros.
This would include removing the steps, footing ,foundation, building the room, finish inside and out, roof

I roughly figure you hole in the basment is 5 x 20 x 3, I make that about 11 yards or about one truck of gravel. That will be cheap ,you can get a price on that locally. You might be able to rent a small conveyer for loading it in. By hand a day or two for one man. You would still install the new sump and pump at the higher level to make sure it dosn't flood.

That being said, I will go back to if you refill that hole I would take a look at a horizontal furnace that would fit in at the new level.
Water was in the kitchen and failed inspection likely for 2 reasons I think, it was not in a room with enough clearence around it and it didn't have a fresh air vent for fire air.
A new high efficiency tank can be put in a different location as fresh air and exhaust are just 2 pvc pipe that can go straight out of the wall so it dosn't have to be located at the chimney or stack.

I will ask Frodo to come over and have a look , he should have some of these answers.

 

[zannej]

Here's an odd question: I know around here sometimes there are tiny little wooden boxes outside the house that hold just the water heater and the homeowners have to go outside to look at the heater for maintenance.

I'm guessing that probably isn't an option-- but would it be possible for jm to have just a small shed built adjacent to the house (maybe near the basement entry or close to the current location of the water heater) with a roof that slopes away from the house?
Like this but maybe taller?

Or something like this right up against the house:

 

[KULTULZ]

If you plan to put the furnace and/or WH into an outside shed, you have to consider freezing temps and heat/insulate/vent to protect the appliances.

 

[zannej]

If you plan to put the furnace and/or WH into an outside shed, you have to consider freezing temps and heat/insulate/vent to protect the appliances.

You also have to consider how to access it during very cold months.
Edit: I forgot that you already probably have to go outside and then crawl through that little door to get to your stuff currently-- so maybe a shed above ground wouldn't be so bad.

I think water heaters tend to lose a lot of heat from the bottom, so you want something underneath that will prevent heat loss-- but you don't want the water heater to be what is heating the space inside of a shed/building.

I have something like this in the shed where my water well and pump are:

but there might be better heating solutions. Good insulation would help.

 

[bud16415]

Just a thought and I know it may have been covered before. seeing as how the house is to be sold is there any room in the house, (first floor parlor, extra bed room , porch etc) that was needed back in the day but now is a spare room.

You can have gravel delivered in a concrete truck and they add a little water and it pours right out the shoot and thru a small opening into the basement.

Neal’s idea of using a doorway sounds good and making a hall along one side and just moving the outside door out I might go 8X8.

 

[slownsteady]

What if you built the containment shed right over the existing crawlspace door? No need to make a new hole in the foundation and possibly keep the access from within the shed.

 

[nealtw]

What if you built the containment shed right over the existing crawlspace door? No need to make a new hole in the foundation and possibly keep the access from within the shed.

Access hole will be to small once the two ducts are run.

 

[bud16415]

Too bad they didn’t opt for hot water heat way back. You could stuff all the PEX you need thru a 6” hole.

 

[nealtw]

This would be my plan.
Install on demand hot water, at best location outside house A/ $2000
Remove furnace.
Install plastic sump in that area to pick up water about the known high water mark. From when the pump stopped working years ago.
Drill holes in block walls
Fill the cavity with drain rock, leaving room for skim coat of concrete. Cover all the dirt and gravel with poly vapour bearier and install concrete over the gravel area 2 1/2 ". A/1000
Install a new horizontal furnace, if that one can not be adapted, plumb the consensing to the sump. A/ $2000-$5000

With all this water, we have not talked about whats happening about mold, Should have venting thru the walls or dehumiditifier.

 

[nealtw]

Too bad they didn’t opt for hot water heat way back. You could stuff all the PEX you need thru a 6” hole.

They have AC, they had just air handler before they had furnace, to bad the HVAC guy didn't talk about horizontal at both of those installations

 

[jmr106]

The house next door to us had something like the first and second photo for years, apparently with the water heater in it. They have a dirt crawlspace. However, they eventually added on some kind of extra little room on the house. Not sure why they decided to move it. I'd imagine that building an extension room onto the house would cost half or more of the purchase price of a new car.