Advice for this nightmare basement?

[jmr106]

The building would have to be an addition to the house, I doubt it would be cost effective but that would have to be worked out.

Is it completely against code for such a thing to be in a shed-like building or a simple wooden extension on the back of the house? Or is it just not really feasible due to the insulation and such needed? The area where the a/c unit is...about a foot to the right of that is an outside faucet. However, between the faucet and the bedroom window is probably 8-10 feet of space with nothing there.

I roughly figure you hole in the basment is 5 x 20 x 3, I make that about 11 yards or about one truck of gravel.

The back end seems to be a little shorter (or probably the floor has built itself up a bit due to the dirt that was washed from the wall on that side) and maybe 3'. The front half towards the sump is about 3.5'. I haven't measured it completely, but I'd estimate it to be about 15' long and somewhere between 3.5' and 4' wide.

Water was in the kitchen and failed inspection likely for 2 reasons I think, it was not in a room with enough clearence around it and it didn't have a fresh air vent for fire air.

It could have been the clearance (it was in a corner), but the vent pipe apparently ran through the ceiling of the kitchen. We can still barely make out what was once a hole. It is a couple of feet away from the walls on each side, though.

The gas water heater could be changed to something like electric on-the-fly. I'll bet that pulls a ton of amps, though. Not really anywhere to relocate it to other than outside.

There is less space down there (above the hole) than appears in the crawlspace area. Putting a horizontal furnace there in the crawlspace area (unless the hole was built up partially and it was put in there after being partially filled in) would likely violate our codes here. They'd say the heat source was way too close to the wood floor above, and it would be given the size. If the current furnace could be flipped sideways (if possible with that model), it would be at or touching the the wood floor of the rooms above. Then that's not even factoring in the blower housing and such.

 

[jmr106]

You also have to consider how to access it during very cold months.
Edit: I forgot that you already probably have to go outside and then crawl through that little door to get to your stuff currently-- so maybe a shed above ground wouldn't be so bad.

I think water heaters tend to lose a lot of heat from the bottom, so you want something underneath that will prevent heat loss-- but you don't want the water heater to be what is heating the space inside of a shed/building.

Well, it could be elevated above the ground outside, of course. Probably the whole building would need to be elevated on something just to keep puddles from intruding when the ground saturates in our heavy 3-4 day rains. Couldn't the water heater be wrapped in some sort of blanket insulation made to fit it?

In regards to the building itself...if there was an outside shed-type building, it would heat itself. That little pvc vent pipe sticking out of the furnace/blower assembly that keeps the condensation pump from vacuum-locking has an open top on it. It is only a 1" or so pipe, but it keeps the entire crawlspace reasonably warm compared to below-freezing air outside. This same method would likely keep any insulated shed-type building close to room temperature just by the furnace going off and on as usual. In the same way, the water heater and furnace would both stay warm inside of the building by this method. The furnace is pretty much its own heater currently. If not for that, the crawlspace would probably be nearly the outside temperatures. The same for the summer...air blows out and keeps the crawlspace reasonably cool when it is a hundred degrees outside.

 

[jmr106]

I have still been researching ways to figure out what is under the surrounding land and what may have been done with the house and land in older times.

Online, apparently there is a HouseFax (just like CarFax) that gives a Property History Report. However, that probably won't be as good as city records.

The Tax Assessor's office apparently only deals with buying/selling prices and such.

Apparently my county has a History Center. I'm going to try to contact them and see if they have any info pertaining to the property.

The county courthouse seems like it would have the most info. Deed books and Plat Maps, among other things. I'm going to dig through and see what kind of drains might have existed, any changes to the land, septic systems, etc. Apparently they might have some kind of developer maps from early on when the houses were built, as well. Those would be really helpful.

I'm beginning to wonder if that isn't just an old storm drain that runs under the yards and is openly visible in the yards down the street. That may explain why the middle of the yard floods. But, who knows...hopefully I'll dig something up on those plans and be able to find something in the yard. It is in the upper 20's currently and our high temps have made it pretty chilly for digging.

 

[zannej]

JMR- it is not uncommon for water heaters to be elevated. Mine is inside the house and is elevated at least 3 feet off the floor. This would allow for more room for water to flow when you need to drain the tank for maintenance. You hook up a hose and the hose needs to drain under the structure.

There are drip pans you put under the water heater, although most of them would have the heater sit directly in the water except the Bulldog ones.

Otherwise, I've been told you can set bricks underneath it in the pan to raise it up and allow water to flow around.

Anything you would wrap it in would have to be fire/heat resistant.

As for gas vs electric, IIRC the power company sometimes gives you a credit if you switch to electric. I know a guy who got the power company to essentially pay for his new water heater to get him to switch to electric. You can try to get an energy star rated one. All of my appliances are electric and my bill can be pretty high-- but my exterior walls are not insulated, the house was expanded over the years, and I have other out-buildings that are being powered-- including a water well shed with a jet pump.

I think Kultulz knows more about what sort of surfaces you need to have underneath the water heater.

Good luck with your search on the causes of the flooding in your yard. I hope it all goes well for you.

 

[nealtw]

Is it completely against code for such a thing to be in a shed-like building or a simple wooden extension on the back of the house? Or is it just not really feasible due to the insulation and such needed? The area where the a/c unit is...about a foot to the right of that is an outside faucet. However, between the faucet and the bedroom window is probably 8-10 feet of space with nothing there.

Not sure about codes, you would have to check that with permit dept. for the structure and HVAC. I was also thinking about how it will look for a buyer.

The back end seems to be a little shorter (or probably the floor has built itself up a bit due to the dirt that was washed from the wall on that side) and maybe 3'. The front half towards the sump is about 3.5'. I haven't measured it completely, but I'd estimate it to be about 15' long and somewhere between 3.5' and 4' wide.

So if you filled it 30" the math would be 4x15x2.5=150/27=5.5 yards

It could have been the clearance (it was in a corner), but the vent pipe apparently ran through the ceiling of the kitchen. We can still barely make out what was once a hole. It is a couple of feet away from the walls on each side, though.

The gas water heater could be changed to something like electric on-the-fly. I'll bet that pulls a ton of amps, though. Not really anywhere to relocate it to other than outside.

There is less space down there (above the hole) than appears in the crawlspace area. Putting a horizontal furnace there in the crawlspace area (unless the hole was built up partially and it was put in there after being partially filled in) would likely violate our codes here. They'd say the heat source was way too close to the wood floor above, and it would be given the size. If the current furnace could be flipped sideways (if possible with that model), it would be at or touching the the wood floor of the rooms above. Then that's not even factoring in the blower housing and such.

I have had 2 houses with horizontal furnaces, they were pretty close to the floor and all the ducts were in line cold on one end heat out the other end.
Neither of those houses had more than a 36" crawlspace
Home Depot does have a manual for such a furnace but it is a pdf file and for some reason I can't open them.

 

[KULTULZ]

I think water heaters tend to lose a lot of heat from the bottom, so you want something underneath that will prevent heat loss-- but you don't want the water heater to be what is heating the space inside of a shed/building.

I have something like this in the shed where my water well and pump are:

but there might be better heating solutions. Good insulation would help.

Give this a view- http://www.eheat.com/

One would use a lot less electricity and you wouldn't have to baby-sit it.

Install a GFCI receptacle and you are ready to go. Of course the shed would have to be well insulated (and vented if furnace and WH are NG/propane natural draft).

 

[frodo]

you have to stop the water.

my suggestion, is not cheap.

dig around the house ,install drains, then water proof the outside wall to stop water from coming in.

on the inside, pour the floor with concrete, excavate the excess dirt out of basement.

then spray gunite over the dirt

 

[zannej]

Give this a view- http://www.eheat.com/

One would use a lot less electricity and you wouldn't have to baby-sit it.

Install a GFCI receptacle and you are ready to go. Of course the shed would have to be well insulated (and vented if furnace and WH are NG/propane natural draft).

Thanks! I personally don't like that style of heater, but for some reason my mother likes it. I have some ceramic space heaters in the house that have shielding so nothing is hot to the touch and people won't get burned by touching them. They are energystar efficient.
I'll have to check and see if the outlets in that shed are GFCI...

 

[KULTULZ]

I'll have to check and see if the outlets in that shed are GFCI...

Yeah, you need it an outside building like that. Don't forget if you have more than one receptacle you can daisy-chain the others off the GFCI receptacle (first in line from the breaker) or just use a GFCI breaker on the whole circuit ($$$).

 

[jmr106]

Out of curiosity, I came across a product made by a company in a city not too far away from where I live. It is called J-DRain and is used in conjunction with something called J-DRain SWD. Do you think that would be something I should look into? Apparently the SWD still needs to go below the wall, but seems to have its own pipe system. I'm a bit confused because it states that it "is a unique drainage system consisting of vertical chimneys and a base collection system that is both easy to install and can be installed at a fraction of the cost of pipe and gravel french drains. J-DRain 200 wall composite used along with J-DRain SWD base collection system provides the ultimate drainage and water protection for basement construction. This system replaces gravel back fill and pipe and gravel french drains." It looks like they use some kind of drain downspouts that come out of the middle of the wall.

Is there a way to do this without the french drain or am I reading that wrong? It looks like they still have something under the base of the wall diverting the water.

http://www.buildsite.com/pdf/jdrenterprises/J-Drain-J-DRain-for-Residential-Applications-317064.pdf

After looking at the required amount of work and the general price range for french drains outside of the house (which may not even fix the problem), I have decided that the problem should best be addressed internally.

Likewise, the work for removing the whole heating/air system and water heater and relocating outside would be ridiculous. Having a building or shed there with those in it would look quite ridiculous, so I'm scrapping that idea completely.

The attached photo is I presume the type of french drain that was previously mentioned with the crushed rock along the base of the wall, perforated pipe under the crushed rock, etc. Apparently this same issue happens to homeowners who have similar (but much larger) floor to ceiling walls even in their regular stand-up basements and they end up with a french drain around the perimeter or on one or more sides of the basement.

The water heater could theoretically be changed to a tankless and perhaps put somewhere above the hole in the dirt area. Maybe on a cement slab or something.

The system...I might just have to work around it as-is. I do know for a fact that when they had the system put in, the HVAC people were apparently told to elevate it as much as possible. That was as high as they could go with it, from what I understand. I figure that the first thing to do after removal of the water heater would be to put on a mask (slight worries about hantavirus in doing such a thing in an enclosed dirt area, but not really a mouse problem around here) and get the hose and sprayer. Start at the far end of the hole where the water heater was and spray the whole floor of the hole, all the way down to the pumps. Spray away all of the dirt that has washed down into the hole and find the cement underneath. That way I'll know what I'm working with and the area would be cleaner.

I figure that the best way to determine how deep that cement is would be to try to drill through it until I see dirt on the drill bit. That would need to be a longer bit.

I'm slightly confused about the perforated pipe. So basically the french drain is a pipe with holes in it that sits in the center of the crushed gravel and absorbs the water and redirects it to the sump. Simple concept, but I'm wondering how well that water actually stays in and flows through such a pipe. It seems like it would be flowing out constantly into the rocks and almost useless to have the pipe there. I take it that I'd have to use one of those basins with the premade holes all over it and crushed gravel around the basin in order to get flow to the pumps? It doesn't seem like I'd be able to use any of the traditional pipe-to-basin methods since the water is flowing so loosely in the french drain.

 

[nealtw]

That is the same type of system I posted in #5 and with the pipe you would use a sump that had hole just for the pipe to go into it.
My post #28 would give the same result with a lot less effort.

They use a pipe to drain the block but in your case all the blocks have water in them so punchig holes in them allows the water to flow and the dimple board contains it and routes down into the grave.

 

[slownsteady]

The SWD may be ok, but it probably doesn't carry the volume of a 4" pipe, so be careful there. The gravel is there to provide protection for the pipe, and yes, some water may travel outside the pipe. But since you would be using perforated pipe, the water can transfer into the pipe at any point. Additionally, the pipe and the gravel NEEDS to be surrounded by geotextile to prevent fine particles from clogging up the works. The J-Drain system tries to incorporate all that into their product. I would research a lot before committing, because I bet there is more to it than that brochure shows.

http://j-drain.com/sub-installation.php

 

[jmr106]

The SWD may be ok, but it probably doesn't carry the volume of a 4" pipe, so be careful there. The gravel is there to provide protection for the pipe, and yes, some water may travel outside the pipe. But since you would be using perforated pipe, the water can transfer into the pipe at any point. Additionally, the pipe and the gravel NEEDS to be surrounded by geotextile to prevent fine particles from clogging up the works. The J-Drain system tries to incorporate all that into their product. I would research a lot before committing, because I bet there is more to it than that brochure shows.

I'd just stick with the 4" pipe in that case, then. I guess my question was basically...if the perforated pipe runs the length of the french drain under the gravel, at what point does it turn into a regular closed pipe in order to channel all of the water into the sump basin that would be closed? Even if it did turn into a closed pipe, my question is mainly...what happens to that "loose" water that didn't make it into the perforated part and is among the rocks? Should I only be considering installing a sump basin with holes in the sides of it and surrounded with the fabric with the crushed gravel on the outside of it?

Since that area would have collapsed without a cement base...I'm wondering just how deep that cement will be under the dirt that has washed down over the years.

Thinking of just pulling that water heater out, changing it to electric (going to have to figure out if the breaker can handle that and which line to put it on - not too sure how many amps those tankless ones use) and getting them to cap the gas line. That would eliminate the problem around the water tank and any flooding issues with it. The heating/air machine is elevated, but particularly on that air intake side, it is extremely tight. I'm currently trying to figure out how the heck I'm going to get any type of jackhammer or anything under that metal box with the intake hose attached to it on the right side.

If I did jackhammer out the cement (about my only option, anyway), would I need to cut a line with a saw first in order to prevent overshooting the max width of the french drain? I wouldn't imagine that cement breaks up all that evenly. Never really done it, actually.

I suppose I have a slightly irrational fear of punching through the floor cement and finding a water source or something. :hide: Mainly because that is going even further under the ground and it is hard to tell whether there is a watertight barrier between the cement floor itself and the base of the bricks. But I guess I'd know that anyway, since a water source would have punched its way through the dirt a few inches and be coming out at all times. Since it isn't, I suppose I should be safe in doing so. That's probably not even rational, because the former owners would likely have hit such a source in digging the hole 37 years ago. I was reading about this guy who discovered two vent holes in his back yard in the ground, with some water coming out of them. Being curious, he dug around them and water started pouring out of them into his back yard. Apparently some kind of natural springs with no "off" button. That probably didn't help my concern for the depth of that being under the ground. haha

 

[slownsteady]

I'm starting to think that unless you are ready to redirect all that water before it reaches the basement, then you're just wasting your time. From your original pics, it looks like you would need a helluva system to trap and redirect all that water. And if the system you install can't keep up, you will essentially be in the same situation, with water flowing over the floor and into the sump. Since you have some idea of the GPM that your sump can handle, maybe you (or someone here) can make a calculation on how big a pipe you need to capture that water. Your basement, right now, is doing what a pipe would do; that is moving water to the sump pump. The problem is that your equipment happens to be in the way. Whatever you choose to do, base it on resale value of the house. If it improves the value; do it.

 

[jmr106]

Since you have some idea of the GPM that your sump can handle, maybe you (or someone here) can make a calculation on how big a pipe you need to capture that water. Your basement, right now, is doing what a pipe would do; that is moving water to the sump pump. The problem is that your equipment happens to be in the way. Whatever you choose to do, base it on resale value of the house. If it improves the value; do it.

Current outside french drain estimates of going around the house would probably run $20,000+, under the fence (separates front and back yard), etc. Then there are some drain pipes in the way...I know for a fact that a sewer drain pipe is not too far under the ground just outside of the back of the house (the pvc pipe visible coming out of the basement under the window). I think it is just the washing machine and kitchen sink combined into that pipe. It apparently goes out and curves around somewhere over towards the other corner of the house where it joins the sewer line. Lots of complications would likely be encountered with that.

I actually have a video (only about a minute long) of the worst flow and was going to put it up from recently when we had a big rain system and it just would not stop raining. Was trying to find a site to host it. Water stays at the top of the sump hole and doesn't creep out, but doesn't go down for a while, either. It stays fixed at the top of the hole. Both pumps are able to keep up. The baby 1/3HP pump (somewhere around 2400GPH or about 40GPM) can keep up about 95% of the time if it is just a normal weather system or even if it is raining moderately for 2-3 days. If 3-4 days of constantly heavy rain, both might come on during certain times. When it is pouring rain outside, the ground is already saturated and water flow is already coming in steadily from the bricks - all at once. That's only when the 1/2HP (3800GPH/63GPM) kicks in. It is a bit of a rare event to need both.

Eventually I'll be upgrading that 1 1/2" PVC to 2" and throwing an iON Storm Pro 3/4HP submersible down there to be the main pump. That can hold its own at 74GPM. The 1/2HP will stay as a backup and I don't think there will ever be a 137GPM flow for both to be needed.

My main thing isn't really keeping the water out as far as getting it to not flood. It is just how it would look to a potential buyer and it is a threat to the equipment. That, and it is moisture under the basement in mass quantities, but only when it rains for days at a time. There's no visible mold in the basement or under the house structure that I have seen, for instance. Every once in a while a mobile object in the house (some bag in a closet, weight bench on an exercise machine, etc.) might get a little white powder mildew due to the moist and cooler air in general. I'm thinking that may mostly be the cooler air that flows under the curtains due to the house having the older, single-pane windows. However, there's nothing anywhere major like on the walls and such.

A contractor/buyer who flips houses, for instance, would want to give a much lower price anyway - even if they could fix the issue and would have lots of help and cheap labor with the know-how. That just seems to be the name of the game. So I'm not sure how it will affect the value, but having an appraisal and getting a real estate person to check it wouldn't hurt at some point.

 

[zannej]

Hmm.. If you were to dig the french drain yourself and lay the pipe, I wonder if you could do it. Maybe you could rent a machine for the day to dig (after contacting utility companies to have them mark underground lines-- gas, phone, cable) to make sure you won't hit anything. If you're not comfortable with that maybe you could dig it yourself. If it works anything like a septic tank field line, it would have to slope gradually and be no longer than 100ft per run. You would want to use gravel that is dust-free because the dusty kind will clog pores.

I think you are looking at getting something like "weeping tile" system or something. Basements don't exist in my area since we are below sea level and the water table is high so I don't know much about basements and water removal-- well, no more than I've seen on TV (Holmes on Homes and Holmes Inspection) where they showed weeping tiles and sump pumps. I've heard that one of the biggest expenses is the labor and equipment costs of digging. If you can do any of the digging yourself, it could save some $.

On other thing you might want to consider, if you have space, is getting a large rain barrel to catch the downpour from the gutters. I've seen rain barrels with a spout where you could hook up a hose. You could run a hose to a ditch or something to drain it if it started to get too full. And you could also use it to conserve water for when things are dry (if it ever gets dry there). You could water the lawn and plant sand stuff with it. You might also want to look in to getting plants that don't have aggressive roots but that soak up a lot of water. It can take out a little bit of the ground water (but not much). If you can decrease the amount of water going in, maybe it will help at least a little.

 

[nealtw]

I'd just stick with the 4" pipe in that case, then. I guess my question was basically...if the perforated pipe runs the length of the french drain under the gravel, at what point does it turn into a regular closed pipe in order to channel all of the water into the sump basin that would be closed? Even if it did turn into a closed pipe, my question is mainly...what happens to that "loose" water that didn't make it into the perforated part and is among the rocks? Should I only be considering installing a sump basin with holes in the sides of it and surrounded with the fabric with the crushed gravel on the outside of it?

Since that area would have collapsed without a cement base...I'm wondering just how deep that cement will be under the dirt that has washed down over the years.

Thinking of just pulling that water heater out, changing it to electric (going to have to figure out if the breaker can handle that and which line to put it on - not too sure how many amps those tankless ones use) and getting them to cap the gas line. That would eliminate the problem around the water tank and any flooding issues with it. The heating/air machine is elevated, but particularly on that air intake side, it is extremely tight. I'm currently trying to figure out how the heck I'm going to get any type of jackhammer or anything under that metal box with the intake hose attached to it on the right side.

If I did jackhammer out the cement (about my only option, anyway), would I need to cut a line with a saw first in order to prevent overshooting the max width of the french drain? I wouldn't imagine that cement breaks up all that evenly. Never really done it, actually.

I suppose I have a slightly irrational fear of punching through the floor cement and finding a water source or something. :hide: Mainly because that is going even further under the ground and it is hard to tell whether there is a watertight barrier between the cement floor itself and the base of the bricks. But I guess I'd know that anyway, since a water source would have punched its way through the dirt a few inches and be coming out at all times. Since it isn't, I suppose I should be safe in doing so. That's probably not even rational, because the former owners would likely have hit such a source in digging the hole 37 years ago. I was reading about this guy who discovered two vent holes in his back yard in the ground, with some water coming out of them. Being curious, he dug around them and water started pouring out of them into his back yard. Apparently some kind of natural springs with no "off" button. That probably didn't help my concern for the depth of that being under the ground. haha

If you fix the water problem as is , there would be no reason to change the tank or type if tank. BTW on demand hot water is usually gas and vented directly out so they can go anywhere, inside or outside an outside wall.

You do have enough room to add gravel and new sump without digging into the floor, you can do it with pipe or just gravel.

 

[slownsteady]

Why not put your biggest pump in the first position? it has the best chance of keeping up and the other pumps can be support for it.

 

[slownsteady]

When I waterproofed one side of my foundation, (block wall), I hired a man and machine on a daily rate. He dug out the trench and went away. I had the trench open for a few weeks so the block could thoroughly dry out. Then I put a waterproof coating on the wall, put in a sheet drain and laid the drain pipe myself. Called the guy back in to deliver and drop the gravel in the hole and fill it...another single day rate plus material. Total cost under $3k

 

[jmr106]

Why not put your biggest pump in the first position? it has the best chance of keeping up and the other pumps can be support for it.

That was the intention at one point, but a 1/2 HP pedestal (that's a cast iron one due to the nature of the pit) makes a ton of vibration. The boards that both attach to (about the only way to make them stay upright) are attached to floor joists above. Going to change the smaller one out at some point for a submersible. Usually big ones come on first. In this case, the smaller is older and the one I would rather get the rest of use out of before changing it. It gets the water out and keeps up unless it is a tropical storm or flash flooding event. So, I keep that as the main one for now. If water gets to near the top of the sump, the big one kicks on and keeps it in check. Even in a flash flood warning with inches of water on the ground outside in all yards, both pumps were not overtaken and it never left the top of the sump.