Cocked roof

Discussion in 'Roofing and Siding' started by voyager, Nov 10, 2018.

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  1. Nov 10, 2018 #1

    voyager

    voyager

    voyager

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    After talking about it for months, maybe even years, I have finally begun the back lanai roof replacement project.
    The major problems I've been running into are related to it being an unpermitted owner built addition.
    I've been trying to repair, replace and put it back together as it was built, one piece at a time.
    I've just run into a major problem.

    The roof used the Palram Suntuf corrugated polycarbonate panels.
    I will be using the same type of panels for the new roof.
    A major problem with the previous install is that none of the recommended closure strips were used to support the panel installation.
    A couple of hurricanes and a few other wind storms have beaten the panels badly.

    So, my current problem:
    The length of the lanai roof where it attaches to the edge of the house's roof is 59' 5".
    The length of the lanai at the outboard end of it's rafters where its fascia and gutter attaches is 59' 2-1/2".
    It looks to have been built from L to R as the discrepancy is between the last rafter on the R and the fascia on the end of the lanai.

    Normally, this wouldn't an insurmountable problem except, for the corrugations in the panels and the use of the horizontal closure strips that match and hold the corrugation spacing.
    The end panel will require a diagonal cut along its outer edge to fit the end fascia creating problems with installing the vertical closure strips and sealing the edge.
    The problem appears to be that the 4x6 beam on the top of the outer wall is 2-1/2" short.
    They did not use the horizontal closure strips.
    So, they could kind'a cock the panels to allow for the difference in width top and bottom.

    The only cure I can see for this condition is to replace the end 4x6 with a 2-1/2" longer timber.
    There is a 12' borate treated 4x6 availabla at HD that could be cut down to the length needed.

    Other ideas?
     

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  2. Nov 10, 2018 #2

    nealtw

    nealtw

    nealtw

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    [​IMG]
    I would just move it out to where it should be and just nail a piece of 2x10 to the face of the beam and 2x4 that we can see just left of your ladder. and nail that rafter to the 2x10.
     
  3. Nov 10, 2018 #3

    voyager

    voyager

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    Hi Neil,
    _______
    EDIT:
    I'm having trouble visualizing what you're suggesting.
    I'm seeing a scabbed together fix.
    I cannot go for that.
    -----------
    I had given thought to breaking the 4x6 loose, sliding it to the right as far as needed, then shimming between it and the next 4x6 over.
    My anal temperament had me discounting that approach.
    I would need to find a strong tie or similar, possibly a strap on the undersides of the beams and shim, that would sit on top of the 4x4 post and support the 4x6 on the R with the shim between the beams.
    If done neatly enough, I could be satisfied with that approach.
    Thoughts?
     

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    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
  4. Nov 11, 2018 #4

    nealtw

    nealtw

    nealtw

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    Normally there would be a liner 2x? across the tails of the joists, just like was done on the original house rafters. and the beam is cut short.
    To sliding it over, yes that would work, you want 1 3/4" bearing so you could just add a stud beside the post, a spacer between and a flat strap o r two.
    flat straps.jpg
     
  5. Nov 12, 2018 #5

    voyager

    voyager

    voyager

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    OK, Yes there will be a fascia [terminology?] along the outboard ends of the rafters with a gutter installed on it.
    The old ones are still in place on the far end of the lanai.
    The two gray 2x6 on the grass in Pic-01 are the old fascia from the area that has been opened up.
    They will be replaced with new lumber along with a new gutter.

    It could be fastened to the end boards with them in the location they need to be in.
    But then, the end boards [fascia?] would not bear on the 4x6.
    They would only be supported by the strong tie at the house roof and nailing to the fascia board on the other end.
    Then, the notch in the end board would be floating in the air just off the end of the 4x6.

    I'll go into town tomorrow to HD to look at strong ties to see if I can find anything that will work for the shim/spacer job.
    The more I think about it, the better I like it.
    Loosening the beam up to slide it over a bit is more work than I would like.
    But, completely removing it and replacing it is a lot more work.

    Note:
    The 2x4s sitting on the top of the 4x6 are blocking to close the gap between the beam and the underside of the roof to help keep bugs out of the lanai's screened section.
    Plus, they will support the edge of the lattice boards that will be under the roof panels.
    Yeah, I know ...WHAT?
    I'll explain later as this progresses, when they show up in the photos and someone asks: Why are you doing that bit of nonsense?
     
  6. Nov 12, 2018 #6

    voyager

    voyager

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    Went to HD this morning.
    Picked up 4 12" straps, 2 for the bottom side and 1 for each side of the 4x6.
    Got 2 good sunny days forecast.
    I'll begin breaking the beam loose this evening and continue on tomorrow.

    In the mean time, questions:
    1.
    The rafters are attached to the beam with hurricane ties, RIMG0030.jpg

    then are attached to the house with joist hangers.
    RIMG0029.jpg
    They are about 10'-6" +/- long.
    To raise the outboard end of the rafters to clear the beam may cause problems with the fasteners on the house end.
    I'm thinking that I may need to remove all the affected rafters.
    Could I just raise the outboard end maybe 3" at most to clear the beam without damaging the house end attachments?

    2.
    The flashing is 8" wide.
    The house roof has an 18° slope.
    The lanai roof has only about a 2.5° slope.
    I need to replace at least some of the flashing between the roofs. RIMG0033.jpg
    Because of the difference in the roof slopes, the flashing has to be inserted under the house roof before installing the lanai panels.
    The old flashing was 4" under the house roof & 4" over the lanai roof.
    I'd like to only put 3" under the house roof with 5" over the lanai panels because of the shallow angle of the lanai roof.
    Any potential problems with that?

    3.
    I bought a rotary saw blade from HD that says it is suitable for plastics.
    I tried to cut some of the old weathered panels as a test with it.
    RIMG0034.jpg

    The old panels were quite brittle from years of sun exposure.
    The edges chipped, cracked, and split ending up looking quite nasty.
    I did not reverse the blade for that test.

    If I reverse the blade, and use it on new unweathered panels, am I still likely to get chipping, splitting and cracking?
     
  7. Nov 12, 2018 #7

    nealtw

    nealtw

    nealtw

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    Almost any old ugly blade in backward will make perfect cuts.
    Pull all the screws from the ties to the beam, push the beam side ways a little and slide the joists back the same little, repeat until you get to the new location. If you work between 1/2 to 1" at a time you do not have to worry about the other end or lift them..
    Not sure what is best for the flashing.
     
  8. Nov 14, 2018 #8

    voyager

    voyager

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    I was still locked into the idea of the work involved to completely remove the beam.
    Just sliding it over a couple of inches was a piece of cake.
    The beam was unfastened, slid over until the end fascia was parallel to the rafters, then the spacer blocks were installed.
    The spacer block from 2x4 pieces is epoxied and nailed together.
    RIMG0037sm.jpg

    The top block looks to be off center but is not.
    It's an illusion created by the rounded corner on the 2x4 piece.

    I'm ready to begin installation of the fascia boards for the ends of the rafters.
    Because of the shallow angle of the lanai roof, the runoff would run back under the panels to the fascia boards, then down it.
    Rot had set in.
    So, I'll coat them with a penetrating marine epoxy to seal and protect the wood before actually painting them.
    Then, I can set a gutter in place to judge the length need for the panels.

    Our domestic water is catchment from the house and lanai roofs.
    I'll be using the Genova Raingo gutters.
    They are PVC and should be "food grade" quality.

    How far should the ends of the roof panels overlap the 5" width of the gutters?
    I was thinking of adding 2" to the length of the old panels, bringing thew edge out to the mid point of the gutter.
    The roof does get a lot of runoff, but because of the shallow angle it doesn't move very fast.

    EDIT:
    Yeah, I know the screws are not to code.
    I thought about trying to permit the structure for the redo but, I'd have had to change out all the screws installed in all the strong ties throughout the entire 60' of roof and structure.
    No way!
    Plus, I've lost most of the vision in one eye due to glacoma.
    My close up depth perception is not good enough to swing a hammer accurately to drive nails through the holes.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2018
  9. Nov 14, 2018 #9

    nealtw

    nealtw

    nealtw

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    You don't have enough bearing even with the straps under the beam , I would put a 2x4 or something on the side of the post down to the ground or change to a bigger post.

    A bead of silicone under the bottom edge provides a drip edge so water will not run back up the panel underneath. I would hang it over the gutter about 1 1/2"
     
  10. Nov 15, 2018 #10

    voyager

    voyager

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    Well, I'm back to thinking about just replacing the entire beam with one 2" longer.
    A 12' hi-bor 4x6 s only $33.
    I just cringe at the thought of an odd looking post along that wall.
    I will never be happy when looking at it.
    It won't be all that difficult to replace it.
    I've already played with the first part of getting it done.
    Plus, I need some blocks on many occasions and can never find any around here.
    That beam would give me a lot of good useful blocks when I need a few.


    They beveled the ends of the outboard fascia boards so they fit like so:
    RIMG0045sm.jpg

    I'm inclined to want to forego doing that.
    Is there a good reason to bevel the board ends rather than leaving them square and simply butting them against each other?
    Those fascia boards will be covered with epoxy before painting to waterproof them, including the ends.

    The gutters have been ordered.
    They will be shipping them over from Waimea by Mon or Tue.
     
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  11. Dec 3, 2018 #11

    voyager

    voyager

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    I'm almost 1/2 done replacing the roof panels.
    That's my foreman up on the ladder checking my work and making sure all the tools are down before the rain starts.
    He keeps a close watch on the job and its progress.
    RIMG0067.jpg

    The most difficult portion is almost finished.
    RIMG0069.jpg
    The screened area has lattice panels under the roof panels.

    They tout the fact that the carbonate panels stop most of the UV rays.
    What they don't tell you is that the carbonate panels have little to no affect on the IR wavelengths.
    You may not get a tan under these panels, but it is unbearably hot under them when the sun shines.
    The lattice panels cut the amount of IR coming through the roof.

    I did replace the short beam with one of the correct length.
    I unbuttoned it, set up a ramp to carry it away from the wall and slid it down.
    I then used the ramp to raise the new beam up into place.
    RIMG0053.jpg

    I'm down to the next dry day I'll begin removing more old roofing, fascia, gutter, etc to finish the screened area.
    So far it is a good tight installation, no leaks from any of the fasteners or anything else.

    I've left the old flashing between the roofs in place and am installing new flashing over the old.
    It makes it easier to put the new flashing in.

    After finishing the roof, I'll pick up a roll of pet resistant screening and redo the entire screened area.
    The cats are constantly climbing up the screening chasing after geckos, anoles, moths, butterfies and anything else that catches their attention.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
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  12. Dec 31, 2018 #12

    voyager

    voyager

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    Well, this project is beginning to near its end.
    All the bad wood has been replaced, short beam, fascia, end boards [fascia], perlins etc.
    All the new wood that is exposed to weather has been coated with a marine epoxy before painting.
    The old exposed wood had a lot of rot throughout it.

    Get the paint touched up, gutter installed, some caulking and leak fixing, then the most time consuming part will be waiting as long as 1 to 2 months for a sheet metal bending tool to arrive, so that I can fab flashing for the ends of the roof.
    I'll post pics after I get it finished.

    I may not replace the screening on the screened area.
    It's not in all that bad of condition.
    It may only need cleaning.

    In the meantime, I'm beginning to plan out the installation of a couple of new HD plastic sheds.
    Plus, maybe relocating a smaller, older one that is already here.
    I'll start that over in the masonry/concrete forum for advice on putting in small concrete slabs for them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
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  13. Jan 7, 2019 #13

    voyager

    voyager

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    OK, the back lanai roof rebuild is done less new flashing for the ends of the roof, new screening, and cleaning of the slab.

    01 - RIMG0094.jpg
    The screened area from the door on the S end of the lanai.

    02 - RIMG0098.jpg
    The screened area from the door at the open area.

    03 - RIMG0095.jpg
    The entire lanai from the end of the open area.

    04 - RIMG0097.jpg
    The roof from the N end.

    05 - RIMG0104.jpg
    The roof from the S end.

    06 - RIMG0103.jpg
    Water collection from the roof.

    To keep as much organic material out of the catchment tank as possible, we pass the runoff through screens.
    Plus, I have added covers to the new gutter.

    07  - RIMG0100.jpg
    We collect the roof runoff in a 10k gallon catchment tank.

    This is our domestic water supply, less drinking water.
    That we carry from county water stations in 3 and 5 gal. bottles.
    All materials used for roof water collection have to be food grade.

    The small shed behind the catchment tank is a generator shed.
    Except for when the county shut our power off for a couple of months during the eruption, we've lost elecrtical power several times for as long as 6 days due to hurricanes and wind storms.
    Winds over 35mph begin to breakoff limbs and knock trees over, raising havoc with the electrical grid.

    Tomorrow I'll be going into HD to order screening for the lanai, and a concrete mixer to make slabs for 2 to 3 sheds for storage.
     
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  14. Feb 10, 2019 #14

    voyager

    voyager

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    The back lanai is finished!

    RIMG0175.jpg
    The shading from the lattice boards makes it like dappled light under a tree when the sun is overhead.
    The amount of IR passed by the carbonate panels is made negligible by the lattice panels.

    M'Lady wanted a porch swing.
    She ordered it.
    I hung it.
    We are again having our first morning cups of coffee on the lanai, but now sitting on the swing.
    Plus, it's long enough that I can take daytime naps on it.

    RIMG0181.jpg The doors on both ends have been squared up by installing turnbuckles on them.
    They no longer drag and hang up on the slab.
    She has made the lanai into a part of the house's living area.

    RIMG0176.jpg
    All the screening has been replaced with new.
    The old was a grey colored fiberglass and scattered a lot of light making glare when th e sun fell on it.
    The new is charcoal colored.
    There is still some glare, but much less.

    RIMG0179.jpg
    The sheet metal folding tool arrived.

    RIMG0177.jpg
    I was able to make the flashing for the ends of the roof.
    The folding tool did a great job.
    I was concerned about it working steel flashing, so I used the aluminum flashing I had on hand.
    It did the job nicely and would have worked just as well on steel.
    ---------------------------------------------------------

    OK, actually almost finished.
    There might be 2 or 3 screws that leak under heavy rains.
    We're in our winter drought period and it only rains hard at night.
    After a few heavy daytime rains any leaks will be fixed.
     
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