Cutler-Hammer 15amp gfci breaker

[tk3000]

Hello Folks,

My house came with an old 200amps Cutler-Hammer circuit breaker panel. The breakers are of the tan variety. Amongst the breakers there is a 15amp GFCI breaker with a red test button, and upon pressing the test button nothing happened; so, I went ahead and tested the outlets connected to the circuit with a gfic outlet tester and low and behold the breaker did trip. Problem be that now the breaker simply does not work any longer: by switching the breaker to the ON position, physically the breaker stays in the ON position but there is no power in that circuit. So, it needs to be replaced. How easy would be to find that type of breaker? Are all the tan cutler-hammer breakers compatible?

Below pic depicting the panel:



Thanks for any input.

 

[Sparky617]

Cutler Hammer is now Eaton. And I believe these will fit.

https://www.lowes.com/search?searchTerm=cutler hammer breakers&catalog=4294722478&ac=true

 

[afjes_2016]

I highly suggest that before you replace the breaker that you try resetting it again.
Try this method:: push the handle on the breaker firmly to the "Off" position first. Then move the handle firmly to the "On" position. Many times when people reset a breaker they fail to push it firmly to the "Off" position first but instead move it to the "On' position and it does not reset.
When moving the handle to off then on no need to man-handle it but do push it firmly until you feel it engage to both positions.

Let us know how you make out.

 

[tk3000]

I highly suggest that before you replace the breaker that you try resetting it again.
Try this method:: push the handle on the breaker firmly to the "Off" position first. Then move the handle firmly to the "On" position. Many times when people reset a breaker they fail to push it firmly to the "Off" position first but instead move it to the "On' position and it does not reset.
When moving the handle to off then on no need to man-handle it but do push it firmly until you feel it engage to both positions.

Let us know how you make out.

Yeah, I tried something similar several times and wiggled the breaker switch a little to feel anything, turned if on and off at different speeds and paces, etc; nothing worked. Until, I finally found the culprit. That gfci breaker controls several receptacles in different rooms and spaces: 3 baths and exterior lights and receptacles. It turned out that there was a gfci receptacle downstream and it tripped, the breaker itself never tripped. Once I found out about it, it was a simple matter of resetting it.

Modern gfci receptacles are much cheaper and have more features and tech. It also would make it easier to manager different portions of the circuit. I wonder if that it wouldn't be better to simply replace the breaker with a regular 15amps one, and then use a gfci receptacles instead?

But still, the gfci breaker is not tripping once I press the “test” button on the gfci breaker itself; so, it will need to be replaced soon. At least, I am not in such a hurry to replace it now.

Thanks!

 

[afjes_2016]

I went ahead and tested the outlets connected to the circuit with a gfic outlet tester and low and behold the breaker did trip.

This was a bit misleading. I was going by the fact that the breaker had tripped as you stated when you applied the tester to the circuit.

Meantime, there really should not be any GFCI receptacles on this circuit that is being protected by a GFCi breaker. You may want to remove/replace any GFCi receptacles with regular receptacles and then try the test button on the GfCi breaker again. No sense in buying and installing a new GFCI breaker just to find it will do the same thing.

Using a GFCI breaker and individual GFCI receptacles on the same circuit does not provide any extra safety factors to the circuit.

If you remove any GFCI receptacles from the circuit and replace with regular receptacles be sure that any receptacles that may be in a damp or wet location like outdoors have a rating of "WR" (weather resistant) stamped on the face of the receptacle.

If you replace GFCI receptacles with regular and the GfCI breaker still does not trip when you press the test button on the breaker then yes, probably does need to be replaced.

My opinion is that it is better to use the GFCI breaker on the circuit. It protects the entire circuit. You have it - so use it.

 

[bud16415]

I have mixed feelings about one GFCI breaker in the panel or having outlets spread around the house. In my case my panel is in the basement and it’s a century old house with a unfinished field stone basement, a door from the kitchen that normally stays bolted and some old time stairs to get down there. In the kitchen I like the GFCI right there from time to time I get a nuisance trip and I hear the click and it takes 2 seconds to reset. The bathroom even more so as the last place she wants to run to if her hair dryer does a nuisance trip when she is fresh out of the shower would be thru the house down the stairs from the second floor thru the kitchen and to the basement. For my outside outlets on my deck I put the GFCI outlet inside exactly opposite the LOAD regular outlet outside in the proper enclosure. If the outside one pops I know right where to go. I found an added bonus doing outside outlets like this and that is if I plug my Christmas lights into them I can turn them off at night with the test button.



They run about 20 bucks a pop. For me I’m ok with not having them in the panel. If my main panel was on the first floor and easy to access maybe I wouldn’t mind.

 

[tk3000]

This was a bit misleading. I was going by the fact that the breaker had tripped as you stated when you applied the tester to the circuit.

Meantime, there really should not be any GFCI receptacles on this circuit that is being protected by a GFCi breaker. You may want to remove/replace any GFCi receptacles with regular receptacles and then try the test button on the GfCi breaker again. No sense in buying and installing a new GFCI breaker just to find it will do the same thing.

Using a GFCI breaker and individual GFCI receptacles on the same circuit does not provide any extra safety factors to the circuit.

If you remove any GFCI receptacles from the circuit and replace with regular receptacles be sure that any receptacles that may be in a damp or wet location like outdoors have a rating of "WR" (weather resistant) stamped on the face of the receptacle.

If you replace GFCI receptacles with regular and the GfCI breaker still does not trip when you press the test button on the breaker then yes, probably does need to be replaced.

My opinion is that it is better to use the GFCI breaker on the circuit. It protects the entire circuit. You have it - so use it.

Sorry, my bad; memory is not registering everything as it should.

When I depressed the tester button on the receptacle tester I heard a tripping noise and all lights in that circuit went off, then went to the breaker panel and immediately tried to turn the breaker switch back and forth a few times since the power did not come on the first time, and I simply did not pay much attention to which position that breaker switch was at first. Also, many of the breakers were in the off position (I was testing a bunch of breakers in order to identify which circuit each breaker controlled what, so it was not obvious that the gfci breaker was in the off position).

Later, I will do the test with the gfci receptacle removed from the circuit and will consider the pros and cons of replacing the main gfci breaker (in case it is needed).

 

[afjes_2016]

They run about 20 bucks a pop. For me I’m ok with not having them in the panel. If my main panel was on the first floor and easy to access maybe I wouldn’t mind.

I basically agree with you Bud. Convenience does matter in some cases.

Example: I have ice dam roof melters on my roof. They are on two separate circuits. They plug into receptacles up by the edge of the roof on two sides of the house. My switches for them I placed in my utility room inside the house. No need to go and plug them in to use them; get on a ladder to plug them in - forget it. Of course I GFCI protected them even though they are up high near the soffit. In the receptacle box I installed regular receptacles rated WR and placed the GFCIs for these two circuits right next to the switches in the utility room. If one trips I don't have to go outside in the snow and ice, climb a ladder to reset them. Convenience is important when you are physically disabled and 68 yo.

 

[bud16415]

I basically agree with you Bud. Convenience does matter in some cases.

Example: I have ice dam roof melters on my roof. They are on two separate circuits. They plug into receptacles up by the edge of the roof on two sides of the house. My switches for them I placed in my utility room inside the house. No need to go and plug them in to use them; get on a ladder to plug them in - forget it. Of course I GFCI protected them even though they are up high near the soffit. In the receptacle box I installed regular receptacles rated WR and placed the GFCIs for these two circuits right next to the switches in the utility room. If one trips I don't have to go outside in the snow and ice, climb a ladder to reset them. Convenience is important when you are physically disabled and 68 yo.

Great tip and good info.



Without going too off topic. When I have something remote like your roof heaters or even a light switch where the switch location doesn’t allow you to know if the light is on, I like to use a switch with a built in pilot light that lets me know it is on.



The way my 68 year old brain works is I would turn the roof heaters on at the first snow and remember to turn them off around the fourth of July.



As to the OP I would get rid of one or the other GFCI that are daisy chained together as even though it might not hurt or add additional protection it does add to the confusion when something trips it.

 

[afjes_2016]

...When I have something remote like your roof heaters or even a light switch where the switch location doesn’t allow you to know if the light is on, I like to use a switch with a built in pilot light that lets me know it is on.

We think alike I see. Lighted switches is what I installed as my brain forgets too sometimes plus I mounted them in an area that can be seen by walking by on a regular basis thus one more safety feature so they are not left on for days. I was going to go one more step further and put them on timers but did not want to spend the money for two of them. I only left them on longer than should be twice this year so not bad and both times was just a few hours.

 

[PJB12]

Your circuit breakers are "CH SERIES". My memory says that the part number for your circuit breaker is: CHFGT115CS.

If you don't mind a couple of suggestions, below are submitted respectfully and just top serve an ideas to consider:
A) Perhaps replace the circuit breaker with a combination arc fault/ground fault circuit breaker. I apologize, but I can't remember the part number for those. By doing this, you're upgrading and adding more protection.

B) Instead of a replacement ground fault circuit breaker, perhaps install a non-gfci breaker and, adjacent to the load center, install a dead-front GFI device. (Photo below) It's more work to do this, but less expensive.
As you add new circuits requiring GFCI or GFI protection, install another dead front. All of your "resets" will be in one location.

C) Used & Tested will be cheaper than new.
A source for a used and tested replacement circuit breaker might be Salinger Electric in Troy, Michigan. (248) 585-8330. They will mail it. They are very good people & honest as can be.
Other used equipment dealers are found at the web site for Electrical Advertiser.

D) Cycle all of your circuit breakers at least twice a year. This prevents sticking of the arm and spring. This is especially important for outdoor and damp (such as basement) locations. For GFI receptacle outlets, trip them twice a year also.
(Perhaps on Daylight Savings Time clock switching days, when you do the smoke detector testing & batteries, fire extinguisher shaking & gauge checking, add cycle the breakers.

I have installed and maintained hundreds & hundreds of Cutler Hammer CH (and BR) load centers, panelboards, switch gear, transformers, etc. From 120-v to 13,200 volt, mostly in industrial locations, plus some commercial and a few residential for friends. I've installed and maintained all of the other brands as well.

Personally, I think that Eaton/CH has the most reliable & long lasting GFCI and AFCI products available. Even after Eaton bought Cutler Hammer, the products stayed excellent- except for the new style covers on the 3-phase 600 volt BR series. What a pain!
This is just my opinion. Others like different brands.

Paul

 

[tk3000]

Your circuit breakers are "CH SERIES". My memory says that the part number for your circuit breaker is: CHFGT115CS.

If you don't mind a couple of suggestions, below are submitted respectfully and just top serve an ideas to consider:
A) Perhaps replace the circuit breaker with a combination arc fault/ground fault circuit breaker. I apologize, but I can't remember the part number for those. By doing this, you're upgrading and adding more protection.

B) Instead of a replacement ground fault circuit breaker, perhaps install a non-gfci breaker and, adjacent to the load center, install a dead-front GFI device. (Photo below) It's more work to do this, but less expensive.
As you add new circuits requiring GFCI or GFI protection, install another dead front. All of your "resets" will be in one location.

C) Used & Tested will be cheaper than new.
A source for a used and tested replacement circuit breaker might be Salinger Electric in Troy, Michigan. (248) 585-8330. They will mail it. They are very good people & honest as can be.
Other used equipment dealers are found at the web site for Electrical Advertiser.

D) Cycle all of your circuit breakers at least twice a year. This prevents sticking of the arm and spring. This is especially important for outdoor and damp (such as basement) locations. For GFI receptacle outlets, trip them twice a year also.
(Perhaps on Daylight Savings Time clock switching days, when you do the smoke detector testing & batteries, fire extinguisher shaking & gauge checking, add cycle the breakers.

I have installed and maintained hundreds & hundreds of Cutler Hammer CH (and BR) load centers, panelboards, switch gear, transformers, etc. From 120-v to 13,200 volt, mostly in industrial locations, plus some commercial and a few residential for friends. I've installed and maintained all of the other brands as well.

Personally, I think that Eaton/CH has the most reliable & long lasting GFCI and AFCI products available. Even after Eaton bought Cutler Hammer, the products stayed excellent- except for the new style covers on the 3-phase 600 volt BR series. What a pain!
This is just my opinion. Others like different brands.

Paul

Thanks a lot for all the recommendations, hints and ideas! I have not heard about the dead fronts till now.

But having more than one gfci receptacle in one circuit would fit a different purpose for me.The idea would be to divide the circuit into segments, each segment protected by a different gfci receptacle. For instance, currently I have one gfci circuit breaker controlling a circuit that feeds power to three bath (2 full and 1 half).

In case each bath could be protected by its own gfci receptacle, and the gfci receptacle in each bath would be daisy chained to the other receptacles and light fixture in their respective bathrooms. If there is an incident in one bathroom (bathroom number 1); and, for instance, someone let a hair-dryer fall in the water which would then trip the gfci controlling everything within this bathroom, ultimately protecting that person from an electrical shock. But, then, why should other bathroom be affected by that incident? Unless, even though the other gfci located in the other bathrooms are not connected to the LOAD terminals of the gfci in the bath number 1, the tripping of one gfci in one bathroom would cause the other GFCIs in the other bathrooms to trip as well (perhaps due to sensitivities to very small variations in the current)? Besides, there is also the issue of “nuisance tripping” that can arise by having multiple gfci receptacles in the same circuit. If that is the case, aren’t there gfcis that are immune to that type of situation and predicament?


Thanks

 

[bud16415]

Thanks a lot for all the recommendations, hints and ideas! I have not heard about the dead fronts till now.

But having more than one gfci receptacle in one circuit would fit a different purpose for me.The idea would be to divide the circuit into segments, each segment protected by a different gfci receptacle. For instance, currently I have one gfci circuit breaker controlling a circuit that feeds power to three bath (2 full and 1 half).

In case each bath could be protected by its own gfci receptacle, and the gfci receptacle in each bath would be daisy chained to the other receptacles and light fixture in their respective bathrooms. If there is an incident in one bathroom (bathroom number 1); and, for instance, someone let a hair-dryer fall in the water which would then trip the gfci controlling everything within this bathroom, ultimately protecting that person from an electrical shock. But, then, why should other bathroom be affected by that incident? Unless, even though the other gfci located in the other bathrooms are not connected to the LOAD terminals of the gfci in the bath number 1, the tripping of one gfci in one bathroom would cause the other GFCIs in the other bathrooms to trip as well (perhaps due to sensitivities to very small variations in the current)? Besides, there is also the issue of “nuisance tripping” that can arise by having multiple gfci receptacles in the same circuit. If that is the case, aren’t there gfcis that are immune to that type of situation and predicament?


Thanks

That was the jest of my above post. If you have more than one GFCI in line in a circuit say one on the main breaker and then one in the bathroom as an outlet with its LOAD powering any number of branches. When a trip condition happens you wont know what GFCI will trip or if they both might.



If you want zones of protection say for each bathroom then I think you want a regular non-GFCI in the panel and then one outlet in each bathroom.



Having them in line offers no greater protection and cause confusion.

 

[tk3000]

That was the jest of my above post. If you have more than one GFCI in line in a circuit say one on the main breaker and then one in the bathroom as an outlet with its LOAD powering any number of branches. When a trip condition happens you wont know what GFCI will trip or if they both might.



If you want zones of protection say for each bathroom then I think you want a regular non-GFCI in the panel and then one outlet in each bathroom.



Having them in line offers no greater protection and cause confusion.

Yeah, I understand that. I am not the one who installed the gfci receptacle in the circuit that was already protected by a gfci breaker (assuming it is working). I bought the house few weeks ago, and was in the process of trying to identify which breaker controlled what part(s) of the house; then, I came across that situation whereby my gfci receptacle tester caused a trip and found a gfci receptacle in-line.

 

[PJB12]

Thanks a lot for all the recommendations, hints and ideas! I have not heard about the dead fronts till now.

But having more than one gfci receptacle in one circuit would fit a different purpose for me.The idea would be to divide the circuit into segments, each segment protected by a different gfci receptacle. For instance, currently I have one gfci circuit breaker controlling a circuit that feeds power to three bath (2 full and 1 half).

In case each bath could be protected by its own gfci receptacle, and the gfci receptacle in each bath would be daisy chained to the other receptacles and light fixture in their respective bathrooms. If there is an incident in one bathroom (bathroom number 1); and, for instance, someone let a hair-dryer fall in the water which would then trip the gfci controlling everything within this bathroom, ultimately protecting that person from an electrical shock. But, then, why should other bathroom be affected by that incident? Unless, even though the other gfci located in the other bathrooms are not connected to the LOAD terminals of the gfci in the bath number 1, the tripping of one gfci in one bathroom would cause the other GFCIs in the other bathrooms to trip as well (perhaps due to sensitivities to very small variations in the current)? Besides, there is also the issue of “nuisance tripping” that can arise by having multiple gfci receptacles in the same circuit. If that is the case, aren’t there gfcis that are immune to that type of situation and predicament?


Thanks

You can certainly do what you're describing- assuming I understand correctly.
Use a Non-GFCI circuit breaker. Feed to a junction box. Split off to GFI receptacles or dead fronts.
From the receptacles' load sides go to the places you want protected.

If something trips one GFI, it won't bother the others.

A 10 second drawing is below.

You can have as many devices as you want*.
*You mentioned Ontario. I don't remember how many devices are allowed on one
circuit in the code as I never worked residential.
Unless things changed, in the United States, NFPA-70 has no limit on the number of receptacle outlets on a residential circuit. (Residential only)





Paul

Neutrals & grounds not shown in drawing.

 

[tk3000]

You can certainly do what you're describing- assuming I understand correctly.
Use a Non-GFCI circuit breaker. Feed to a junction box. Split off to GFI receptacles or dead fronts.
From the receptacles' load sides go to the places you want protected.

If something trips one GFI, it won't bother the others.

A 10 second drawing is below.

You can have as many devices as you want*.
*You mentioned Ontario. I don't remember how many devices are allowed on one
circuit in the code as I never worked residential.
Unless things changed, in the United States, NFPA-70 has no limit on the number of receptacle outlets on a residential circuit. (Residential only)





Paul

Neutrals & grounds not shown in drawing.

Cool, thanks. That was my understanding, but then I heard people talking about one gfci breaker possibly interring with other gfci breakers even though each gfci break was wired in parallel to each other, and also heard about the so called nuance tripping.

Is gfci protection required for light fixtures as well?

 

[afjes_2016]

Is gfci protection required for light fixtures as well?

As far as I know the only time GFCI protection may be required for a light fixture inside the house is in the "shower/bath tub area" zone if the light is rated to be GFCI protected.

 

[PJB12]

Cool, thanks. That was my understanding, but then I heard people talking about one gfci breaker possibly interring with other gfci breakers even though each gfci break was wired in parallel to each other, and also heard about the so called nuance tripping.

Is gfci protection required for light fixtures as well?

To better understand (and I should have explained in my earlier post):
Picture the wires coming into your house. Perhaps you have 20 circuits and 6 of them have GFCI or GFI protection. When one trips, it won't bother the others.

Or, picture the wires coming off Hydro's transformer. They may serve a dozen houses. Each house has multiple ground fault protection devices. If your neighbor trips a device, your devices don't notice.

By doing as my kindergarten quality drawing shows, you're essentially doing the same thing as in the preceding paragraphs.


About Your Ground Fault For Light Question:
At 30-320 (1) (2) the code requires that if the fixture is withing 1.5 meters of any plumbing fixture, it needs to be suitable for damp locations. The code does not call out GFCI or GFI protection. But, if the switch is located within 1 meter of the tub or shower stall, it must be protected with a Class A (5 mA 25 miliseconds) ground fault device (It's at 330-320 (3) if I remember correctly.)

It is common, and I don't know if code for residential, in the U.S. and Ontario that if the room's receptacle outlet ground fault trips the light(s) has to remain on. (I don't keep up too much with residential in U.S. or Canada. I only worked industrial, distribution and a little commercial.)

The best plan is to ask the local inspection department what they want done. (Assuming you're permitting the work.) Then you're covered if an inspector complains.

An Ontario cheat sheet I have from a 2019 update is attached. It's got a little about ground fault protection in it.

NOTE- My last update class was several years ago, so rules may have changed.

Paul

 

[tk3000]

To better understand (and I should have explained in my earlier post):
Picture the wires coming into your house. Perhaps you have 20 circuits and 6 of them have GFCI or GFI protection. When one trips, it won't bother the others.

Or, picture the wires coming off Hydro's transformer. They may serve a dozen houses. Each house has multiple ground fault protection devices. If your neighbor trips a device, your devices don't notice.

By doing as my kindergarten quality drawing shows, you're essentially doing the same thing as in the preceding paragraphs.


About Your Ground Fault For Light Question:
At 30-320 (1) (2) the code requires that if the fixture is withing 1.5 meters of any plumbing fixture, it needs to be suitable for damp locations. The code does not call out GFCI or GFI protection. But, if the switch is located within 1 meter of the tub or shower stall, it must be protected with a Class A (5 mA 25 miliseconds) ground fault device (It's at 330-320 (3) if I remember correctly.)

It is common, and I don't know if code for residential, in the U.S. and Ontario that if the room's receptacle outlet ground fault trips the light(s) has to remain on. (I don't keep up too much with residential in U.S. or Canada. I only worked industrial, distribution and a little commercial.)

The best plan is to ask the local inspection department what they want done. (Assuming you're permitting the work.) Then you're covered if an inspector complains.

An Ontario cheat sheet I have from a 2019 update is attached. It's got a little about ground fault protection in it.

NOTE- My last update class was several years ago, so rules may have changed.

Paul

“To better understand (and I should have explained in my earlier post):
Picture the wires coming into your house. Perhaps you have 20 circuits and 6 of them have GFCI or GFI protection. When one trips, it won't bother the others. “

= Yeah, that was my undertanding. But then, I started hearing things otherwise, like nuance trippings due to having multiple gfci outlets in the same circuit – even though they wired properly, and só on.

The difficulty part in my case is the process of separating each room or part of the house that is in the same circuit with its own gfci repectacle given that it would require identifying the point of entry of the line/hot in that particular room or part of the house. That would demand more investigative work finding out the different points of entry for the line/hot in each room (or part of the house) given that the branch circuit as a whole were previously controlled by a single circuit breaker at the panel -- so that each outlet and light fixture in that room would be properly wired with the new gfci receptacle (or dead gfci). Given that I can not see through the drywall, that would more challenging.

But one such parts of the house is the small deck adjacent to the house, there it seems more or less clear upfront where the point of entry of the line/hot is; a junction box up in the “ceiling”, as shown below:





It is a 1-gang standard box size, used as junction box. I would imagine that a dead gfci could be installed there, thus isolating the circuit from the rest with own gfci protection.

Another thing that called my attention is that the conduit does go all the box itself. Consider that it is an exterior type of situation, shouldn’t the conduit go all the to the box knock-out?

Thanks!

 

[PJB12]

It would be most proper if the conduits went to the boxes. These cables should be rated for damp locations. (They look like UF cable, which is OK)

They also should be protected from physical damage, but where they are located chances are minor that they'll be damaged. Having them ground fault & arc fault protected would be ideal if they are left exposed.

One way to protect them if you don't want to re-pipe is to install running boards alongside the cables. They'll act kind of like guard rails. Putting a cover between the boards to hide the wire would be neat. Honestly, I don't know if this is to code, but it's some added protection.

If you leave the pipes ending in air, be sure to seal the open ends of the pipes with duct seal or similar to prevent insects from building nests. They'll go in to keep the larvae warm & protected.


You could finish the piping most easily by transitioning to flexible nonmetallic conduit. (Not the corrugated kind). Sealtite is one brand. I don't know where in Ontario you live, but I've noticed it at Home Depot in Windsor & in London. Last I saw, it was about $1.20 CDN per foot. Fitting are about $2.00 CDN each.

If the box isn't of sufficient size for the new device, you can buy extension rings or switch to 4" square box with a one device cover.



You mentioned tracing the wires to find the first receptacle on the circuit. Here are some hints:
A) Is there enough slack and access to install a GFI device in a new box between the load center & where the cable disappears? I have GFI receptacles &/or dead fronts next to the load center.

B) If you have to trace to find the cable path, Think Cheap! The installer certainly took the shortest path. Look for where the wire disappears into the floor or wall and go to the wall. The closest device is probably the first. (See "D", below)

C) Follow the wire to where it disappears into a floor or wall. Then go to the wall and try an inexpensive voltage sniffer to track the wire's path. Some sniffers will "read" the wire well inside the wall. One downfall is if there are several wires together. It'll read any of them.

D) Figure out all of the devices on the circuit & mark them with masking tape. Guess which device is the first. Turn the circuit off and open that device box. You will be able to tell which is "incoming" and which is "outgoing". Disconnect the outgoing. Turn the circuit on and check the other devices on the circuit. If they are all de-energized, you've found the first device on the circuit.

There are probably other & better ways to find the first device on the circuit in houses of which I'm not aware. I never worked residential, so hopefully one of the residential electricians will post better methods. They know lots of cool tricks & techniques!

Paul