Cutler-Hammer 15amp gfci breaker

[tk3000]

It would be most proper if the conduits went to the boxes. These cables should be rated for damp locations. (They look like UF cable, which is OK)

They also should be protected from physical damage, but where they are located chances are minor that they'll be damaged. Having them ground fault & arc fault protected would be ideal if they are left exposed.

One way to protect them if you don't want to re-pipe is to install running boards alongside the cables. They'll act kind of like guard rails. Putting a cover between the boards to hide the wire would be neat. Honestly, I don't know if this is to code, but it's some added protection.

If you leave the pipes ending in air, be sure to seal the open ends of the pipes with duct seal or similar to prevent insects from building nests. They'll go in to keep the larvae warm & protected.


You could finish the piping most easily by transitioning to flexible nonmetallic conduit. (Not the corrugated kind). Sealtite is one brand. I don't know where in Ontario you live, but I've noticed it at Home Depot in Windsor & in London. Last I saw, it was about $1.20 CDN per foot. Fitting are about $2.00 CDN each.

If the box isn't of sufficient size for the new device, you can buy extension rings or switch to 4" square box with a one device cover.



You mentioned tracing the wires to find the first receptacle on the circuit. Here are some hints:
A) Is there enough slack and access to install a GFI device in a new box between the load center & where the cable disappears? I have GFI receptacles &/or dead fronts next to the load center.

B) If you have to trace to find the cable path, Think Cheap! The installer certainly took the shortest path. Look for where the wire disappears into the floor or wall and go to the wall. The closest device is probably the first. (See "D", below)

C) Follow the wire to where it disappears into a floor or wall. Then go to the wall and try an inexpensive voltage sniffer to track the wire's path. Some sniffers will "read" the wire well inside the wall. One downfall is if there are several wires together. It'll read any of them.

D) Figure out all of the devices on the circuit & mark them with masking tape. Guess which device is the first. Turn the circuit off and open that device box. You will be able to tell which is "incoming" and which is "outgoing". Disconnect the outgoing. Turn the circuit on and check the other devices on the circuit. If they are all de-energized, you've found the first device on the circuit.

There are probably other & better ways to find the first device on the circuit in houses of which I'm not aware. I never worked residential, so hopefully one of the residential electricians will post better methods. They know lots of cool tricks & techniques!

Paul

Firstly, sorry about the delay in my follow up. At the moment, I am in Central Ohio where I have most of my stuff. In Fort Wayne (new house), due to an incident my computer went south, and I lacked the tools and instruments to address the issue (and only had one computer/notebook there). To make matters worse I lost most of the content I had typed (typed everything in a text editor/processor previous to post it).

I still have a condo in Lansing, MI, but I never lived in Ontario (Canada?). Due to some circumstances I ended up with place both in Lansing, MI, and one in Columbus, OH. I am trying to sell my places in both Lansing and Columbus, and settle down in my new house in Fort Wayne, IN.

Now to the nitty-gritty of the electrical issues. I used plastic conduit and fittings in the past to wire solar panels to a house in two occasions, but the thing about getting old and having done too many different type of things for only a few times is that you start to forget the details, all the steps, and approaches, etc. The part that the cable is exposed to the electrical box is very short run (about a foot or so); if the plastic (liquid tight) conduit is flexible enough (taking into account the room taken by the fittings), it would fix it in cinch. The electrical box (used a junction box, I assume) is a metal one and it has a metal clamp connector holding the electrical cable to the box (which should help to avoid the entry of bugs into the box itself). But in the case of the gray rigid plastic conduits, there is nothing sealing them and the use of duct seal is a great idea and quick fix for now.

Yeah, I plan on using plastic (liquid tight) and fitting. Maybe for now a simple 20amps dead gfci would suffice. But then, the dead gfci would also need be accessible (to test and reset the gfci). So, there would be a need for a cover too. Is there a combination of a ring + cover for that type of metal (galvanized steel) small 1 gang box?

Maybe something like the following combination:

https://www.amazon.com/Sigma-Electr...her+proof+electrical+box+,aps,269&sr=8-5&th=1

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08GKXJX7...p_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWxfdGhlbWF0aWM

The load center is in the garage and all the garage walls are covered by a thick perforated wall board panel (use to hang tools and stuff), and likely drywall as well. I haven’t opened the load center yet (will do it once I am back)

Right now I am in Columbus, OH, but will back in Fort Wayne in a week or so, and then will have better answers! But that it is project that will take some time, too many other things going on now. Right now, I am just doing some assessments; but the part of circuit in the deck should be done a few weeks since it is more straightforward. Thanks a lot for all the ideas, insights and hints. I will report back soon.

 

[PJB12]

Sounds like you're super busy!
I apologize for placing you in Canada. I was working with three in Ontario on ground fault protection & my mind got mixed up. (I'm a licensed master electrician in both countries)

If you're putting the dead-front GFI (or a GFI receptacle) in the bell box shown in the photo, an outdoor receptacle cover for a GFI duplex or a Decora style outlet will work. (Photo below).

If the exposed wire is only about a foot long, it might be hard to transition to flexible non metallic conduit. You might have to remove the box temporarily. If you have a copper tubing cutter & the conduit can come away from the wall/ceiling: You can cut the conduit with the cutter. It'll stop before the cut is finished. Snap the conduit off to finish. This will let you have more room for the flexible non-metallic conduit.

There are 90-degree & 45-degree fittings for the flexible, too. They may be of help.

Paul

 

[tk3000]

Sounds like you're super busy!
I apologize for placing you in Canada. I was working with three in Ontario on ground fault protection & my mind got mixed up. (I'm a licensed master electrician in both countries)

If you're putting the dead-front GFI (or a GFI receptacle) in the bell box shown in the photo, an outdoor receptacle cover for a GFI duplex or a Decora style outlet will work. (Photo below).

If the exposed wire is only about a foot long, it might be hard to transition to flexible non metallic conduit. You might have to remove the box temporarily. If you have a copper tubing cutter & the conduit can come away from the wall/ceiling: You can cut the conduit with the cutter. It'll stop before the cut is finished. Snap the conduit off to finish. This will let you have more room for the flexible non-metallic conduit.

There are 90-degree & 45-degree fittings for the flexible, too. They may be of help.

Paul

It is great having advises from a master electrician.

I happened to have that type of exterior horizontal electrical box cover (slim one), probably bought long time ago when it was on sale just for kicks (you never know when you may need them). I plan on tackle that project in a week or two.

Yeah, I have copper/pvc tube cutters. So, I should be all set to tackle that small project, and will post back thing soon.

Thanks!

 

[tk3000]

Time to resurrect this old thread. Currently, I in the process of get the job done with a few caveats.

Instead of a dead-front gfci, I opted for a regular weather resistant gfci outlet (one extra outlet, just in case). The clearance between the electrical box and the downspout made things more difficult, and in order to simplify the use I am using an outlet extension and along with a low profile cover. The following:










Also, there is surveylance camera besides the outlet. It uses a usb power and currently it is using a regular usb power supply adapter which is kind of unsightly and is more exposed to the weather and the elements. So, instead, I was considering eliminating the usb plug (the camera only use the usb for power, about 5V and maybe 1amp) and connecting the camera wire to a small circuit board which will convert 120VAC to 5VDC. That circuit board would be contained in a small weather sealed box. The circuit board is very small, and so is the weather sealed box (3.94X2.68X1.97). Below some pics:




It all looks sound and good to me, but the NEC can be finicky and has its own idiosyncracies. Any ideas on how to improve my approach or code related issues would be greatly appreciated!

 

[PJB12]

Hi Tk3000,

The only thing I'd be concerned about is hard-wiring the self-assembled rectifier. Technically, it would be against NFPA 70 because the assembly isn't agency listed- even though the parts might be. I would be inclined to cord-and-plug it.

To me, I think your piping job looks very good. I don't see a pro doing a better job. (Note that I don't do often residential, just industrial and some commercial. There might be a residential code violation that I didn't notice, but I doubt it.)

Your work looks safe & trouble free!
Paul

 

[tk3000]

Hi Tk3000,

The only thing I'd be concerned about is hard-wiring the self-assembled rectifier. Technically, it would be against NFPA 70 because the assembly isn't agency listed- even though the parts might be. I would be inclined to cord-and-plug it.

To me, I think your piping job looks very good. I don't see a pro doing a better job. (Note that I don't do often residential, just industrial and some commercial. There might be a residential code violation that I didn't notice, but I doubt it.)

Your work looks safe & trouble free!
Paul

Thanks, Paul. It is good to know. But even though my work may have some inconsistencies regarding code, but the previous ugly and badly done.

The contractor used a deep bare metal box extender that was not grounded. And the metal box extension was screwed to a electrical plastic box that was flushed with the ceiling via one (not two) long wood screw. That long wood screw with its coarse threads ruined the threads in one of the screw holes inside the plastic box. Whoever did that job though was gracefully enough not to use the other screw hole, so I was able to hold the cast aluminum powder coated extender with one 3” machine screw – the other 3” machine screw help to give it stability. In the future, I plan on filling that ruined screw hole with j-b welder, then tap it.

 

[PJB12]

Hi Tk3000!

If you have poor luck repairing the screw hole with epoxy, below are some ideas to get you out of a jam. All of these are technically cheating because you're modifying the box. But, the goofus who put the wood screw didn't exactly follow the rules. You're greatly improving on the situation.

Speed nuts are an option if the screw hole flange is flat. Get one for #6-23 machine thread & slide it over the tab that used to be for the screw. This is perfect for steel boxes and bell boxes. I don't know what a plastic box tab looks like.

Nutserts work very well if you know someone with a Nutsert tool. The generic name is "Rivet Nut".

And, insert nuts (sometimes called "Threaded Inserts") work if there is enough thickness where the screw was. An insert nut has wood screw threads on the outside and machine screw threads on the inside. (Picture below)

Another option is to drill the stripped hole out to 5/32". Then, poking a #37 drill through the hole, drill through the back of the box. (7/64 is close enough if you don't have number drills)
Use a long #6-32 tap to tap the back of the box.
Then use a long screw to mount the device or cover. This works well with metal and fiberglass boxes. I don't work with plastic, so I don't know how well it'll work on one of those.

Quickest, but least desirable is- sometimes one can drill the wrecked hole out and put a vinyl wall anchor for #6 screw in the hole.

I hope either the epoxy or one of the above proves helpful now or in the future.
Paul
PS: What's the red wire in the photo?

 

[tk3000]

Hi Tk3000!

If you have poor luck repairing the screw hole with epoxy, below are some ideas to get you out of a jam. All of these are technically cheating because you're modifying the box. But, the goofus who put the wood screw didn't exactly follow the rules. You're greatly improving on the situation.

Speed nuts are an option if the screw hole flange is flat. Get one for #6-23 machine thread & slide it over the tab that used to be for the screw. This is perfect for steel boxes and bell boxes. I don't know what a plastic box tab looks like.

Nutserts work very well if you know someone with a Nutsert tool. The generic name is "Rivet Nut".

And, insert nuts (sometimes called "Threaded Inserts") work if there is enough thickness where the screw was. An insert nut has wood screw threads on the outside and machine screw threads on the inside. (Picture below)

Another option is to drill the stripped hole out to 5/32". Then, poking a #37 drill through the hole, drill through the back of the box. (7/64 is close enough if you don't have number drills)
Use a long #6-32 tap to tap the back of the box.
Then use a long screw to mount the device or cover. This works well with metal and fiberglass boxes. I don't work with plastic, so I don't know how well it'll work on one of those.

Quickest, but least desirable is- sometimes one can drill the wrecked hole out and put a vinyl wall anchor for #6 screw in the hole.

I hope either the epoxy or one of the above proves helpful now or in the future.
Paul
PS: What's the red wire in the photo?

Hi Paul,

Cool. I will into the other methods you suggested. But, jb-weld is not just any epoxy; when done properly (prep work), it seems to work really well.

I have used it with to repair a cast iron engine in the past, and worked it really well. But, used it extensively to repair screw holes in Asian abs plastic motor scooter body panels. It would be more work in this case because the machine screw does not have a drilling tip neither is it self-tapping.

The vinyl anchor method is a good hack if everything else fails. And never thought about the possibility of using speed nuts for that type of situation. Threaded insert looks like a good option too, but the hole diameter for a #6 screw is very small and the #6 machine screw used in this case is very long (granted there are not much of a load on the screw); besides I never actually used threaded inserts (so, I don’t have experience with them). Many years ago, I used something called helicoil to repair parts of an engine.

In any case, I am pretty confident that j-b weld is going to resolve the issue. Also, using j-b weld, there is no need to remove the plastic j-box that is flushed with the ceiling. But considering how fine the threads of a #6 machine screw, using the right type and size of tap is important. Typically, the other type of screws I used in the past had a drill tip and coarser threads; so, they were more forgiving and did not require tapping the hole – simply drill a hole slightly smaller than the screw diameter and then slowly thread the screw, and it was better and much stronger than the previous threads.

The red cable is probably not a proper type of cable for this application, but that was the only type of thing I had at hand at the time. Basically it consists of two 10 gauge thhn wires inside the shrink wrap tubing that would connect to the ac/dc converter module for the camera. It is less one foot and is more flexible than uf cable; but I will replace it in near future.

 

[PJB12]

Hi Paul,

Cool. I will into the other methods you suggested. But, jb-weld is not just any epoxy; when done properly (prep work), it seems to work really well.

You're not kidding abut JB Weld being a good epoxy. My 2000 GMC truck got the dreaded pump-rub hole in the transfer case. All of the trucks got it, so no used replacements are available. I closed the hole with JB. It's been 10 years & no leaks!

A putty version might be easier to work with, especially if the screw hole is facing down.

An Epoxy-Screw-Hole-Fixing trick: (No drilling, no tapping)
Fill the area that is to be repaired with the epoxy.
Let the epoxy get barely stiff (or use putty epoxy).
When it's barely stiff, put a very light coat of petroleum jelly on a screw and screw it into the hole.
When the epoxy cures, unscrew the screw. It'll leave good, full depth threads in the epoxy.

A note that JB technical told me once- Never use alcohol to clean before using JB Weld. The woman told me why, but I've since forgotten. (Something about hydrocarbon bonding and other words too big for my brain).