Garage sub panel

[bud16415]

Well I have 120 power, lights and outlets are good. Wired one leg as hot wire, capped off other hot wire and used ground as neutral. Didn’t work at first because ground was corroded at clamp. Thanks for all the advice.

You have made a circuit that works. Please be advised it is not safe and is also not to code. In the event one of your buildings burn down or worse someone gets electrocuted the liability will likely go back to you and this choice. Insurance would likely also be denied. If you go to sell your place and there is an inspection done it will likely result in stopping the sale.



You have been given several solutions that would be safe and to code and you fail to try and understand the issues.



If all you require is 120V at your outbuildings the best solution was given early on suggesting you get rid of the 240v breaker replacing it with a 120v breaker and use the two wires you have to carry 120v out to your building one as a hot the other as the neutral.



I strongly suggest you read the below linked information.



Understanding Neutral, Ground, Grounding, and Bonding

 

[gpglinka]

I appreciate the concern. I have lived here 23 years. The garage has had 120 volts for light and outlets with two hot and one ground coming in. I know I should have taken picture of wiring in box before. But the only way it would have worked is if they hooked up both hots and taken out one fuse. They must have used ground as neutral. How else could they have had it work as 120? Only difference now I capped one hot wire off.

 

[PJB12]

But the only way it would have worked is if they hooked up both hots and taken out one fuse. They must have used ground as neutral. How else could they have had it work as 120? Only difference now I capped one hot wire off.

Physics wise, you don't have to cap one phase conductor off ("Hot") for something 120 volts connected across the "hot" and a solidly grounded conductor to operate.

Safety wise, that is a very bad plan. You want the electrons to have an easier path back to the system's main bonding point than to a path to earth, or even the bonding point, through your body. That is why AC has an insulated Grounded Circuit Conductor (aka: neutral) and an Equipment Grounding Conductor (aka: ground wire). Pure safety.



During my career, I would often get called by insurance companies, fire investigators, private adjusters representing the insured, courts and arbitration hearing commissions & such to investigate, evaluate and testify on the cause electrical injuries and fires. If I had to report that a location had 120 volts derived by connecting line to ground, I would guarantee that the insurance company would not pay any injury or property damage claim. Guarantee! The same would hold true for any 240 volt sub panel that was not a proper 4-conductor installation.

Paul

PS: Don't forget to use ground fault circuit interrupters and arc fault circuit interrupters when required or common sense dictates.

 

[gpglinka]

Is there any other way they could have gotten a 120 circuit with two hot wires without using ground as neutral?

 

[bud16415]

Is there any other way they could have gotten a 120 circuit with two hot wires without using ground as neutral?

Nope.

 

[bud16415]

I appreciate the concern. I have lived here 23 years. The garage has had 120 volts for light and outlets with two hot and one ground coming in. I know I should have taken picture of wiring in box before. But the only way it would have worked is if they hooked up both hots and taken out one fuse. They must have used ground as neutral. How else could they have had it work as 120? Only difference now I capped one hot wire off.

As to living someplace for X number of years and never having a problem and assuming that the elapsed time somehow justifies the situation. It does not.



In my old house that the previous owner lived in for nearly 50 years and I had been in about 10 at the time the outside spotlight that illuminated the walk from the driveway to back door started acting up sometimes lighting and sometimes not and sometimes flickering. My first thought was it is the switch so I changed it with no luck. The wires in the switch looked to be 1950s romex. My next step was the fixture was old and bad. So I changed it with no luck. Those wires looked like newer romex from the 1980s. I then found the feed in the basement and it was old romex from the 50s and directed up a wall to the attic above the kitchen. I got in the attic and pulled up some plank flooring and found blown in insulation and dug out the wire to find wire nuts buried in the insulation. As I pulled the wire up after less than 2’ more wire nuts. 3’ more and wire nuts and this time the wires changed to brittle old lamp cord about 6’ of it and that was showing signs of burning. Then the last 3’ was the new wire that went thru the wall.



It worked for many years was not to code and could have at any time burned the house down. But it worked. I didn’t go get a new 6’ length of lamp cord to repair it. I ripped it all out and ran new and to code wires.



Just about every older home I have been in I find something that’s not right or almost not right, and the right thing to do no matter how long it has been that way is to make it right.



These forums are a great starting point to come for answers. We don’t always get the answers we want but we need to try and evaluate the answers we are given.

 

[Eddie_T]

Here's a statement though commonly believed happens to be based upon a false statement;

Why Electricity can be Dangerous​

Electricity always seeks the shortest path to the ground. It tries to find a conductor, or something that it can pass through to get to the ground, like metal, wet wood or water. Your body is about 70 percent water, so that makes you a good conductor, too. For example, if you touch an energized bare wire or faulty appliance while your feet are touching the ground, electricity will automatically pass through you to the ground, causing a harmful or even fatal shock.​

​

Electricity is not seeking anything it will follow any and all available paths to complete the circuit back to the source which for a residence is usually a center tapped transformer providing 240v with 120v derived from the center tap. Since the center tap and the neutral in the power panel are grounded to earth it(earth) can also become an available path back to the source thus presenting the danger. So don't become part of an available path in a current sharing situation. However thick soled Chinese shoes prolly insulate most of us from ground, it's usually that other hand that gets us into trouble.

 

[Eddie_T]

Insurance claim problems have often been cited w/respect to code violations however insurance claims rarely-to-never go to court. The only thing I have noted locally is that the Fire Marshall checks for evidence of arson. I had a neighbor (a builder) who added a flue for a wood stove w/o enough clearance causing a house fire. His insurance paid for demolition/reconstruction but he did it right the second time. There is a risk that insurance could refuse to pay but there's also risk for the insurance company's reputation in an area. For example if State Farm refused to pay in an area such as mine State Farm agents would lose sales and customers because I suspect some code violation could be found in every home. State Farm advertises that it's a good neighbor and has to live up to that image. However I wouldn't chance a problem by knowingly incorrectly wiring a sub panel.

 

[PJB12]

Insurance claim problems have often been cited w/respect to code violations however insurance claims rarely-to-never go to court.

You're sure right about few going to court. Most policies have an arbitration clause. I've been called to testify many times at arbitration hearings, but rarely to court for a tort case. It happened perhaps once out of every 4 or 5 times. I'd even get called by insurance companies themselves to verify if their adjuster's summation of cause was correct. I was the neutral third party.

Insurance company investigators look for anything to use as a "wiggle out". Electrical fires and injuries are really easy to get out of paying.

Private insurance adjusters, hired by the policy holder or the arbitrator's employer, look for reasons to verify or void the "wiggle out". But, any post-policy issue date non-code work that is found complicates things terribly.

The bottom line, however, is that we want the poster to have a safe and reliable installation. Emphasis on "Safe".