Help with Outside Garage Lighting

[Afrowookie]

Can't remember if there was a red. Anywho I will check tomorrow when I get off work and check it out, maybe even a pic if I remember.

 

[Snoonyb]

Or no red wire and just a pigtail or jumper from power that has been lost.
As a single switch with power in that box the switch should have two blacks and white would go to the cluster of whites in the back of the box.

Most of the programable timers are prewired with their own pigtails, so when removed the pigtails go away with them.

Where the black from the timer was connected would either have been from the hot pair or if the switches were wired in the plug-n-play method, plugged into the hot of an adjacent switch, and pigtailed to a screw of the new switch, and the wire the red from the timer should be connected to the other screw of the new switch.

 

[afjes_2016]

Also to help determine if that garage light set up was a 3 or even a 4 way remember, even though the switch where you are working was a timer (and you are not sure if this is a 3 way) there has to be another 3 way switch somewhere else if it is a 3 way set up. Look for another switch that does not have a "on" and "off" on the front of the switch (like in the garage) that does not do anything when you flip the switch if you find it. This will at least give you a clue if it is a 3 way set up. I have seen 3 way set up for garage and outdoor lighting with a switch at the front door, switch in the garage and maybe if the garage is attached a switch by the door in the house that goes into the garage.

Note to OP: 3 and 4 way switches do not have the markings of "on" and "off" on the front of them because they could be on or off in the same position depending on the positions of the other switch/s.

 

[user 4883]

Possibly a photo eye that your not finding and the timer was used to override the duration of the photo eye ?

 

[Afrowookie]

There are no photo eyes, these are just simple on/off lights as far as I can tell.

Also there are no more switches that are inoperable, either inside or outside of the garage, or outside of the house. Just the one inside the house that does not work. Btw, I also check the breaker panel inside the house and that one breaker was labelled as "Parking light, porch and entrance lights".

Here are some pics I took of the Light switches and wiring. I have other images of the outside garage lights, garage fuse panel and switches, the conduits of the garage and house if you like to see them.

 

[nealtw]

The two you have marked dead, will only be live when the switch is turn on.
It is a little confusing, can you confirm the that the switch on the right has a wire going out of the box.
Make sure all the white wires are firm in the nuts.

 

[Snoonyb]

The wiring looks correct, so, if you have 120V to grnd. with your VOM when measuring from the top screw of the 3rd switch, with the switch on, the loose connection is further down to line.

 

[Afrowookie]

Thanks for the replies, I will check again tomorrow for the wire going out of the box. I'm assuming I am looking for a black and white wires. I will try to take a pic again.

 

[markfothebeast]

I've always felt that wire nuts aren't very safe. A wire that wasn't in the nut tight enough can eventually wiggle its way out and wreak havoc. Seen it many times. Avoid checking the current at the pigtail end at the light switch terminal. Instead, test the main power source wire entering the box to the pigtail and work your way up.

I turn the circuit off via the breaker, separate wires, turn light circuit back on, and carefully test them for current with a DMM. A shock from 120v 15a/20a hasn't killed me yet.. but avoid touching the hot anyhow. f you have power at the main wire, check the neutral. Work your way to the light until you find the source of the power disconnect.

Keep in mind, there's another method of wiring known as a "Switch Loop". I've had to sort out homes in which the owner assumed the black was hot and white was neutral and just about burnt the home down. A switch loop is no longer considered (code) NEC. There are wiring diagrams in Google seach everywhere that explain things visually. Take a gander at this basic wiring diagram for multiple lights.

 

[Snoonyb]

Thanks for the replies, I will check again tomorrow for the wire going out of the box. I'm assuming I am looking for a black and white wires. I will try to take a pic again.

You could have 20 black and white wires and until you do a voltage check, you won't know.

 

[Afrowookie]

I just checked the switches again. All three switches when metered using my non contact voltage meter have live wires at the bottom, like someone mentioned the top wires of the switches are only live if the switches are turned on.

For the amount of wires I can count 5 sets of wires coming into or going out of that box. 5 X Black, 5 X White, 5 X Copper. However one set has a Red wire which is not connected to anything. I don't believe it was even connected to the timer switch I removed because it is very short making it impossible to connect to any other wire. Plus I 100% sure I did not cut any wires when removing the timer and installing the newer switch.

What does this red wire do? Should it be connected to something? Here is a pic of what I see.

 

[Snoonyb]

Thanks.

There several possibilities for the RED conductor, however back to your original problem.

If the RED conductor is not associated with the Romex containing the Black and White conductors that are associated with the 3rd switch, you can ignore it and move to the garage lights to continue your process of elimination involved with a solution.

 

[nealtw]

As we don't know what some one else did and it did not work for you when you started, the red wire may be important.
So just the switch in question, do both black wires go to their own cable in the back of the box.
Is the red one in one of those cables and if yes, the top or the bottom one.
Is the red wire live?

 

[Afrowookie]

No, the Red is not live. So I am guessing the next step like you said is to go out to the lights and check the wiring? Obviously the lights aren't coming on so no point in checking the if there for voltage at the light socket. Am I correct? So I should prob open up the fixture and check wire behind?

 

[nealtw]

The last question was about live or not, how about the other two question.

When you have the lamp open you want to see that all the wires are firm in the connections and yes turn on power and the switch and check for power, if you get power the the indication would a problem with the neutral.
How many cables how many wires and colours.

 

[Snoonyb]

With the 3rd switch in the off position, remove the fixture closest to the conduit riser and since this is probably the junction box for the other fixture, remove the wire nuts from the black and white conductors and separate them so you can identify the conductors coming from the conduit.

Turn switch #3 on and check for voltage from the black conductor from the conduit to either grnd. or the white conductor from the conduit. You should read 120V from both.

 

[Afrowookie]

My apologies, I am a little confused. Are you asking if the black wires connected to the switch in question are going directly to it's own wire bundle? And if it does go directly to a wire bundle is one of them the bundle with the Red wire?

 

[Snoonyb]

The black conductor at the bottom of the switch is the hot and comes from the hot pair. The black from the top goes to a cable containing a white and grnd. conductor held in the box by a cable clamp.

Neal's question was is the Red conductor under that same clamp and cable.

 

[nealtw]

My apologies, I am a little confused. Are you asking if the black wires connected to the switch in question are going directly to it's own wire bundle? And if it does go directly to a wire bundle is one of them the bundle with the Red wire?

Ok I will type slower:trophy:

Is the red in one of the cables that have a black attached to the switch

If yes which one.

 

[Afrowookie]

Hope this pic helps answer your question.