How do I troubleshoot this fan?

[farmerjohn1324]

Fan doesn't work, lights don't work.

I can't even get in far enough to use a multimeter.

Where do I begin?

Also, since this fan has never worked, I don't know which circuit it is, so I have to turn off the whole house to work on it.

 

[JoeD]

You should be able to lift the fan out the ball mount now that you have the cover off.

 

[beachguy005]

As I recall, you have a wall switch that controls the fan. Did you check if you have power there?

 

[Kabris]

Agree with beachguy, could be a bad switch or connection. If there's power coming into the switch, turn the switch on and see if there's power on the switch leg. A voltage detector might be a good tool to use if you can't get a multimeter in there.

 

[farmerjohn1324]

As I recall, you have a wall switch that controls the fan. Did you check if you have power there?

I forgot I already made a post about this. There is power to the switch. Attached to this switch, there is a hot, neutral, and ground all coming out of the same tubing. Should there be more?

Of course, I am just assuming this switch works the fan. I don't see anything else that it would be.

 

[Kabris]

Your fan isn't wired in a way that corresponds with that switch, if all that is in the switch box is 1 black, 1 white and 1 ground. Either your fan is switched from somewhere else, or it is constantly hot, and relies solely on the pull chains. I recommend getting a voltage detector (fairly cheap at a big box store) and checking if it's hot at the fan.

 

[Kabris]

If the fan box wires are hot then it could be a bad connection in the box, or the fan itself is bad.

 

[farmerjohn1324]

Your fan isn't wired in a way that corresponds with that switch, if all that is in the switch box is 1 black, 1 white and 1 ground. Either your fan is switched from somewhere else, or it is constantly hot, and relies solely on the pull chains. I recommend getting a voltage detector (fairly cheap at a big box store) and checking if it's hot at the fan.

Will a multimeter work just as well? Which wires exactly should I test?

I drew a diagram of the wires. There are five "casings" of wire coming into the box. Each one has a black, a brown (possibly used to be white, but not as white as the one that attaches to the fan). I labeled these casings 1 - 5 on the diagram. The black wire from each casing goes to a nut that seemingly does nothing, except for casing #3, which goes to the fixture. The brown wire from each casing goes to a different nut, with the exception of the brown wire from casing #3, which goes to the nut that all the other black wires go to. This brown wire nut has a single brown wire that originates from the nut and goes to the fixture (the neutral white wire of the fixture, so maybe I should say COMES FROM the fixture). The ground wires from each casing are twined together and attached to nothing.

From the fixture are a blue and black wire, which eventually attach to the black wire from casing #3. There is a white wire that eventually attaches to the nut that 4 of the brown wires come to.

There are two separate green ground wires that are not attached to anything. They are hanging free, possibly having been cut. One is attached to a casing close to the fan, and another to a metal part closer to the ceiling assembly.

I don't see the point of casings #1, 2, 4, and 5. I think the whole thing would work better if the neutral white coming back from the fan was attached to the neutral brown from casing #3.

I don't see the point for this being so complicated and definitely don't see the point of the nut that 4 of the black wires attach to.

Any suggestions?

I will be happy to clarify the wiring diagram if you need me to.

Will this require entering the attic?

 

[nealtw]

So you have a junction box where power comes in and goes out to other lights or outlets as well as power the fan and goes to a switch.
The cluster of black wires is power coming in and going out to other fixtures.
You might find a white in that cluster, that one will be power going to the switch.
The cluster of white wires are the common wires for everything.

the blue and black from the fan are the light and the fan, they are wired together because you only have one switch.
They are connected to a black that should be from the same cable as the white that goes to the black cluster.

All the bear copper wires, ground wires should be connected to the box and the two green wires should be connected to them or connected to the box.
Not having the rounds connected will not stop things from working.

 

[farmerjohn1324]

So you have a junction box where power comes in and goes out to other lights or outlets as well as power the fan and goes to a switch.

And #3 is supposed to be powering this fan? I have a multimeter. Where do I test to see the problem?

Is the wiring to this fan correct?

Should I mend that broken ground wire by connecting the two wires?

 

[nealtw]

I am late to this party so I don't know what has been done.
Now that you have the fan hanging loose and you are looking for live power, your head could be in a bad place if the fans starts.
remove the fan and don't let the black and white wires touch each other or anything else.
Check the power between the cluster of white wires and the cluster of black wires, should be about 120 volts.

If you have power there, then check the power between the two wires that were going to the fan, with switch up and switch down.

If you find no power there, pull the switch and connect those two wire together and check the fan wires again.

 

[bud16415]

When I see a mess of wires coming into a ceiling box like that in an older house it makes me think it was done with what some call octopus wiring. In the old days they used to bring the hot pair into the ceiling box and then run out and down to pick up as many outlets and runs and other lights etc. Sometimes power originates at the light and sometimes at the switch. When this house was made most likely there was just a light at that location. You said you have 5 cables running into the box. I’m guessing one is bringing in power, one might be running out to a switch and back for the fan, another could be running out to another switch for the light under the fan. That would be 3 of them. The other two could be going out to wall outlets etc. I can’t follow what is going to what is going to what in your photo. And I’m not too clear on your drawing as well. Blue and black are tied together so that tells me the light and the fan are on and off together so no separate switch. All the hots are connected together so cable 3 must be the one that goes to the switch. Power goes out on the brown/ white wire and comes back the black wire powers the black and the blue fan and light and comes back on the white that’s connected to all the brown / whites.

If you go to the switch on the other end of cable 3 you should have power on the brown / white wire.

You can test for voltage there. The switch could be bad or the fan and lights could be bad. You have checked to make sure the fan and lights are turned on with the pull chains????? You could test the switch by jumping a test wire across it if you know how to do that safely. You can check voltage at the wire nut where the 4 blacks and one white go together. Check between that bunch of wires and the bunch that have the brown / whites nutted together. If you have a volt meter and know how to use it you can sometimes find some copper at the base of the wire nut to stick the probe to.

 

[slownsteady]

So now that you have a diagram of all the wires in that junction box, you should be able to disconnect all the wires and then reconnect in exactly the same way (if necessary). Stop me right now if you wouldn't be able to do that. Because as you move forward with this project, you may find that you have several wires disconnected at the same time, and then at least you can get back to the current situation without creating more problems...errr,...challenges. You can use tape and a marker to label the wires 1-5 if that would be helpful.
As Neal said, the fan is in the way now and potentially dangerous, so it should be removed. Using extra wire nuts or electrical tape, cap the bare wires temporarily. Only one of those 5 wires should be bringing electricity to the box, the other four will be distributing that electricity to other places, as Bud said. (I know that I, if i was a new homeowner, would like to know which of those wires is hot and which cable it belongs to and of course which breaker it was connected to). The wire nut that is "doing nothing" is actually the distribution point to the other cables. So the white wire from cable #3 is carrying electricity from the J-box back to the wall switch that controls the fan. The black wire from cable #3 is bringing that electricity back directly to the fan. When you throw the switch off or on, the black #3 wire will have current off or on. So that would be your first test - to see if the circuit going to the fan is complete and that the switch is functioning.

 

[nealtw]

Joe, Bud, S&S, Beach, Kabris. and anyone else. When something stops the first and easiest test is to jump the switch, 9 times out of 10, you have found the problem in less that five minutes.

 

[nealtw]

As I recall, you have a wall switch that controls the fan. Did you check if you have power there?

I little explanation on how might have been good.
Making a connection between line and load with a meter, may just put the operator in danger.:down:

 

[Kabris]

Thank you for the pictures. A multimeter will work fine, but I suggest a voltage detector because it is much faster for troubleshooting. Now that I see a closer look at the round ceiling box, that fan could very well be on that switch you thought it might be on.

The white wire pigtailed to the blacks is your power for the switch, and the black pigtailed to the fan is the switch leg. You know you have power at the switch. Now test if there is voltage at the switch leg at the fan.

Sorry for the late response, busy day.

 

[nealtw]

Thank you for the pictures. A multimeter will work fine, but I suggest a voltage detector because it is much faster for troubleshooting. Now that I see a closer look at the round ceiling box, that fan could very well be on that switch you thought it might be on.

The white wire pigtailed to the blacks is your power for the switch, and the black pigtailed to the fan is the switch leg. You know you have power at the switch. Now test if there is voltage at the switch leg at the fan.

Sorry for the late response, busy day.

Would you really have him check for power with the fan hanging from the wires.:down:
Joe, Bud, S&S, Beach, Kabris. and anyone else. When something stops the first and easiest test is to jump the switch, 9 times out of 10, you have found the problem in less that five minutes.

 

[Kabris]

Neal, yes the fan should not be hanging by its wires. But he has already determined there is voltage on both sides of the switch.

 

[Kabris]

That was our first suggestion, to check the switch.

 

[nealtw]

Neal, yes the fan should not be hanging by its wires. But he has already determined there is voltage on both sides of the switch.

And you know exactly how he tested that, did he go to ground and one screw and then the other or did he go screw to screw. the later does not prove a good switch. Although it could be dangerous.

There is one assumption we have to make here and that is complete ignorance.

Check the switch, doses't mean much if you don't know how.
It needs an explanation on how to it safely.