Multiple Lights Stop Working

[Snoonyb]

Asked and answered.

 

[afjes_2016]

Can someone explain to me how to properly test this box and all its wires?

This is the last line in the message.

I believe he was told he needs a DMM = digital multi meter - to start with other than just the proximity tester.

But if his proximity tester is not even picking up any type of power he does not have to perform any tests.

In his replies though he mentioned he received some type of power coming from the fixture box with his proximity tester.

He is also mixing terminology.

If he does remove any wire nuts from the light fixture box he needs to be sure he does not remove wires from the bundle. He could have a real mess on his hands at that point trying to reconstruct what goes where.

If no power for sure at light fixture box then that is not the issue.

 

[nealtw]

Was he told to tighten the screws at the breaker box?

 

[eharvey650]

eharvey650: Your use of terminology my be confusing some of us which is fine. Now that you have stated your knowledge level we know a little better how to word our answers. You use the term "conduit". Without me having to re-read all your responses to be specific lets start with the correct termonology first. This will help. What do you mean by conduit? Are the wires (individual conductors) within a "pipe" we will call it now whether it be metal or plastic PVC, metal sleeve? A Romex is a set of conductors within a sheath outter layer and within are individual conductors each having its own insulation (except for ground most times). Let's not confuse cables with wires with conduit etc. You can call a romex a cable, the conductors inside are just that conductors or wires. Some cities and towns require conduit to be used in residential homes so it is not uncommon but not in many places. I think Chicago is one of them. However if it is conduit keep in mind that the electrician wiring did not have to use a specific color conductor when running the wires within the conduit where as if it is a manufactured romex cable the colors are normally standard. First, is it a conduit or Romex.

Here is said
"The red wire is going to the light fixture. And a 6 inch section of black wire is tied in with the 4 white wires at the wire nut, and that black wire then connects to the light fixture. "

It seems that they used black wire as a jumper from the neutral (white wires) to the light which should be connected to the white wire of the light fixture. They should have use white. The red wire going to the fixture I would assume is connected to the black wire of the light fixture. How many wires (conductors) are coming from the light fixture itself?

And does the light fixture have a fan. If so is there a separate switch you use to turn on the fan only?

My apology for the incorrect term used to describe what I'm seeing. I guess Romex is the term I should have used. There's four Romex entering the ceiling box.

To answer a previous question:There is NO ceiling fan assembly with the ceiling light.

To answer another question: It's a three light bulb ceiling light. It has a black and a white wire from each light socket on the assy. The red wire from the Romex is connected to black wires from the light assy. And white wires from the light assy is connected to that short piece of black wire that is connected at the wire nut to the white wires from the Romex.

 

[eharvey650]

This is the last line in the message.

I believe he was told he needs a DMM = digital multi meter - to start with other than just the proximity tester.

But if his proximity tester is not even picking up any type of power he does not have to perform any tests.

In his replies though he mentioned he received some type of power coming from the fixture box with his proximity tester.

He is also mixing terminology.

I do have a DMM. It's how I got my voltage readings at the breakers. Initially I was checking all the switch boxes with what I call a non-contact voltage detector. I see you used the term proximity tester. I guess they sell them using both terms. In any event, even with the DMM I find no voltage at the light box or at the switch box.

 

[nealtw]

Home work.
You said you had the 120 volts from each of the breakers in question.
1 I would like you to turn off the main and attempt to tighten screws on the breakers and at the buss where the whites are

2. Can you do a rough sketch of the house and draw in the fixtures you think are part of the circuit including the location of the breaker box.

Mark each fixture with O, L, S Outlet, light, switch and mark each of those with how many cables in each.
eg L4.
Take a photo of that sketch and post it.

 

[nealtw]

I haven't used one but I think this is the answer.
It puts a noise on the wire and the tracker allows you to follow the line from outside the wall and see where it goes and where it stops, pointing at the problem.
https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00279JLBQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Don't know if you can rent one.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJGqh-XJVpk[/ame]

 

[afjes_2016]

eharvey650: Please see post #10 where I say this --

Even though you do not have GFCI receptacles in the bathroom please check other areas of the house. I have found some homes that have GFCI protection in the bathroom by a GFCI in a garage or basement. Yes, this is not code but this does happen. Find all GFCIs in your home first, be sure they are all reset and have power. Doing this first will be far faster and easier in troubleshooting.

You replied that there are no GFCI receptacles in the bathroom. But please by all means just humor me and double check the entire house. Look everywhere, in the basement too, even behind boxes, shelves etc, outside receptacles if you have any (be sure there is not one hidden behind any shrubs), kitchen, if you have another bathroom in the house check there, even right where your breaker panel is (one customer of mine had one there protecting his bathroom). 85% of the time I find a GFCI tripped somewhere in the home where it was least expected to be. It will take you maybe 20 minutes to look everywhere. Don't miss any wall. Even if you have a garage. This could solve your problem quicker and save you a lot of frustration. Some that I have found in a persons home they did not even know they had and they lived in the home for years.

If you do find any GFCIs please tell us how many and where they are in the home.

 

[Snoonyb]

Is there an accessible attic above the bathroom?

 

[bud16415]

eharvey650: Please see post #10 where I say this --

You replied that there are no GFCI receptacles in the bathroom. But please by all means just humor me and double check the entire house. Look everywhere, in the basement too, even behind boxes, shelves etc, outside receptacles if you have any (be sure there is not one hidden behind any shrubs), kitchen, if you have another bathroom in the house check there, even right where your breaker panel is (one customer of mine had one there protecting his bathroom). 85% of the time I find a GFCI tripped somewhere in the home where it was least expected to be. It will take you maybe 20 minutes to look everywhere. Don't miss any wall. Even if you have a garage. This could solve your problem quicker and save you a lot of frustration. Some that I have found in a persons home they did not even know they had and they lived in the home for years.

If you do find any GFCIs please tell us how many and where they are in the home.

My house was newly rewired and upgraded prior to us buying it a couple years ago. They did exactly as you mentioned and mounted a GFCI about two feet from the main panel. They then ran all the basement lighting off that outlet. I had a trip on it and the four basement lights went out and it drove me nuts for about an hour until it dawned on me to reset it. I don’t know if this is now the common way to get a basement lighting circuit protected?

 

[afjes_2016]

bud16415:

NEC basically stipulates (when referring to "code" there are two to follow usually, the NEC and the local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction). The NEC requires an "unfinished" basement to GFCI protection of the receptacles. I don't believe it states the lights must also be protected. But I just finished a large renovation and my customer requested that there be only one circuit in the basement (he was selling the house) so I put the lights on the same circuit. Started with a large 4x4 metal deep box, put a GFCI in it and ran to the rest of the receptacles and lights from there. A bit of an inconvenience if you trip the GFCI though, have to go searching for it in the dark.

I always put a GFCI (dedicated) at the panel also.

I have seen some crazy wiring where someone takes one GFCI and protects bathrooms, outdoor receptacles and basement receptacles with one. Against code and a pain.

A contractor I work for here and there called me one day and had me come to his job site. He said they lost power in the garage and part of the house. Very large house. They were renovating one of the bays of the garage for a room. When I got there he told me he had his guy check the entire house for a GFCI as I had suggested he do when I spoke to him on the phone prior. When I got there it took me 4 minutes to find the culprit. A tripped GFCI behind a very large cabinet in the garage. His guy said the cabinet was too large to move so he did not look behind it to see if one was there. So the guy spent 3 hours looking for the problem elsewhere. It took me 4 minutes. That is why I say you have to look everywhere. His guy just did not want to move the cabinet (too lazy).

 

[nealtw]

bud16415:

NEC basically stipulates (when referring to "code" there are two to follow usually, the NEC and the local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction). The NEC requires an "unfinished" basement to GFCI protection of the receptacles. I don't believe it states the lights must also be protected. But I just finished a large renovation and my customer requested that there be only one circuit in the basement (he was selling the house) so I put the lights on the same circuit. Started with a large 4x4 metal deep box, put a GFCI in it and ran to the rest of the receptacles and lights from there. A bit of an inconvenience if you trip the GFCI though, have to go searching for it in the dark.

I always put a GFCI (dedicated) at the panel also.

I have seen some crazy wiring where someone takes one GFCI and protects bathrooms, outdoor receptacles and basement receptacles with one. Against code and a pain.

A contractor I work for here and there called me one day and had me come to his job site. He said they lost power in the garage and part of the house. Very large house. They were renovating one of the bays of the garage for a room. When I got there he told me he had his guy check the entire house for a GFCI as I had suggested he do when I spoke to him on the phone prior. When I got there it took me 4 minutes to find the culprit. A tripped GFCI behind a very large cabinet in the garage. His guy said the cabinet was too large to move so he did not look behind it to see if one was there. So the guy spent 3 hours looking for the problem elsewhere. It took me 4 minutes. That is why I say you have to look everywhere. His guy just did not want to move the cabinet (too lazy).

You could have wired the lights off the line side and the outlets off the load side.:nono:

 

[afjes_2016]

You could have wired the lights off the line side and the outlets off the load side.:nono:

Yes. that is true. It was a very large basement. Even if I ran one circuit and branched off of a 4x4 jbox GFCI, lights from line and receptacles from load it would have required more Romex as running from the jbox to the lights and again to the receptacles. He did not want to add the extra cost of labor and materials. We talked about that several times before he made his decision. Access was very difficult at times in the way of routing the lines in the basement. There were 5 different sections/rooms.

We also considered running the one circuit to the jbox and then going to the lights and receptacles and using GFCI in each receptacle location. But again involved the cost of a GFCI at each location. This way I only used one GFCI. I gave him the options, he made the decision.

 

[afjes_2016]

eHarvey650:

My curiosity is up. Were you able to solve this issue? If so what was the culprit?

If not did you look further for hidden GFCI receptacles in the house?

Any update would be good.

 

[KULTULZ]

I agree with some others that have suggested this; since there is a bathroom involved please be sure (that if there is a GFCI receptacle in the bathroom), that the GFCI did not trip. Although a circuit for a bathroom may not go to any other room except for another bathroom does not mean someone did not do this. Some electricians do put the bathroom lights on the GFCI. I for one does when my customer requests it. I usually give them the option when wiring. Yes, putting the lights on a gfci may end you up in the dark if it trips but also when coming out of the shower or washing your hands and flipping the light switch you could get a shock, so therefore GFCI is handy in that case. Personal preference..

...hmm...

On a learning curve here so please bear with me...

So it is possible for current to ground through a toggle swith if the user is around water? In this case, all bathroom lights should also be GFCI protected? I would put them on a separate circuit but it is a good idea, right?

Same with a kitchen sink. While now a DW and/or GD must be on separate GFCI circuits (old code wasn't) the kitchen sink overhead light circuit doesn't have to be.

To put them on a separate GFCI circuit would be a good idea if the overhead light switch is at the kitchen sink...

 

[afjes_2016]

...hmm...

On a learning curve here so please bear with me...

So it is possible for current to ground through a toggle swith if the user is around water? In this case, all bathroom lights should also be GFCI protected? I would put them on a separate circuit but it is a good idea, right?

Same with a kitchen sink. While now a DW and/or GD must be on separate GFCI circuits (old code wasn't) the kitchen sink overhead light circuit doesn't have to be.

To put them on a separate GFCI circuit would be a good idea if the overhead light switch is at the kitchen sink...

It really is personal preference to put lights in a bathroom on GFCI or switches for a light near on a kitchen sink on a GFCI. Neither is required. However as far as a kitchen light even over the sink it just can't be on the same circuit as the counter top GFCI or one of the other small appliance circuits.

When flipping on/off light switch in a bathroom; well yes, I guess if you just got out of the shower or just finished washing your hands there may be enough water on your hands (before drying off) to make a connection. Some would say no, some yes. The customer has the option that I normally propose. This is done while I review the number of circuits they want for the bathroom. Some want as many as 4 different circuits in a bathroom (master bath for example). Maybe one for a combination -ceiling light/fan/heater, 3 for receptacles plus lights (some blow dryers use as much as 1,600 watts maybe more) etc etc etc; some bathrooms are very large and he might want to blow dry his hair while her curling iron is heating up and she at the same time is using her hair dryer. It really depends on the customer and what they want. I give them the choice and let them decide from there.

As far as the kitchen is concern (counter top receptacles) this again is up to the customer. The more circuits the better off they are. I usually explain what standard appliances draw in the way of power and then go from there. I usually alternate my circuits across the counter top also so if for any reason one circuit has a problem down the line in the future (a dead short etc) they don't have to move all their appliances to one end of the kitchen counter until they can get an electrician in to find the problem.

 

[Kabris]

The only components to a light toggle switch assembly that could potentially become energized is the cover plate screws/metal cover if a metal box is used and no equipment grounding conductor is connected. If these conditions are present at a switch box I would absolutely recommend ground fault protection, or running an equipment grounding conductor.

 

[nealtw]

...hmm...

On a learning curve here so please bear with me...

So it is possible for current to ground through a toggle swith if the user is around water? In this case, all bathroom lights should also be GFCI protected? I would put them on a separate circuit but it is a good idea, right?

Same with a kitchen sink. While now a DW and/or GD must be on separate GFCI circuits (old code wasn't) the kitchen sink overhead light circuit doesn't have to be.

To put them on a separate GFCI circuit would be a good idea if the overhead light switch is at the kitchen sink...

I modern bathroom with with all plumbing in plastic pipe, that water you are standing in has to some how lead to the ground at the outlet or switch box.

 

[afjes_2016]

I modern bathroom with with all plumbing in plastic pipe, that water you are standing in has to some how lead to the ground at the outlet or switch box.

That is true, however there are other ways there could be a problem. Someone standing in the shower, decides it is too dark, leans out of the shower and reaches for the light switch to turn on the bathroom lights (body still in shower, hand on switch). A child washing their hands at the sink, one hand in the water, other hand soaking wet reaching for the light switch. Chances are slim but the added protection some people like. It does not cost much more to run the wires that way and as I said I give them the option. Yes there are codes as to how far a light switch must be from the shower but even in my house, built many years ago the two light switches and receptacle are right outside the shower curtain. Poor planning.

 

[nealtw]

That is true, however there are other ways there could be a problem. Someone standing in the shower, decides it is too dark, leans out of the shower and reaches for the light switch to turn on the bathroom lights (body still in shower, hand on switch). A child washing their hands at the sink, one hand in the water, other hand soaking wet reaching for the light switch. Chances are slim but the added protection some people like. It does not cost much more to run the wires that way and as I said I give them the option. Yes there are codes as to how far a light switch must be from the shower but even in my house, built many years ago the two light switches and receptacle are right outside the shower curtain. Poor planning.

All I am saying is if all the plumbing is plastic and you reach for that light switch from the shower, the only ground is the screw on the switch plate, and the lights are not usually on a gfci.

I do know all about using tools in the rain, having some of the power go thru the hand and never tripping a ground fault. That likely meant there was a problem with the ground in one of the cords but these things are supposed to help something when there is no ground involved as in a a two wire system.