Patching a Large Hole in Plaster Wall

[bud16415]

OP said she doesn't know plumbing. I have twisted a lot of pipe in 30 years as a homeowner but I would not tackle sweating copper. Is this something a newbie could do using a combination of Sharkbite, brass nipples, and PEX?

Yes

 

[Ron Van]

Looking at the OP's next photo, I am guessing the pipe coming in from the left of her photo you reproduced is the trap arm for the sink, and that the flex pipe "trap arm" was put in to accommodate the lower outlet from the disposal. Also, it looks like the drain might be iron - and modifying that is a pro job. If she ditches the disposal, is there a simple way to re-plumb this?

I wouldn't want to get rid of the disposal if it were me. The trap adaptor needs to be moved down to a level that gives you a 1/4" per foot slope downward on the trap arm. It can be more than 1/4" per foot but the total downward slope can not be greater than the diameter of the trap arm (1 1/2"). Right now, your trap arm has to go uphill to get to the drain (through the flexible tube). Water doesn't flow uphill and is keeping your drain pipes flooded with icky water. Your disposal may have standing water in it too.

From the photo, we can't really tell if there is even a vent on this drain. In older houses, sometimes, they plumbed what essentially is a "S" trap situation, without a vent. like this..



This one is against code as well....


Both those situations can set up a siphon and suck the water out of your trap.

The OPs situation, though, can't be seen until some wall is removed (or inspect through the gaps around the current setup to see if there is a vent).

I think, at the very least, the trap adaptor (where the trap arm goes into the drain system), needs to be lowered. It can be done fairly easy using Fernco Rubberized repair couplings.



The wall will have to be opened up...But you were already going to repair it anyway.

These Fernco repair adaptors are often used to transition from iron pipe to PVC or ABS (whatever you use). Fernco can be used on virtually any type pipe. Iron pipe can be cut easily with a Sawzall with a metal cutting blade. A hacksaw will cut iron pipe but in a confined space, it would take forever.

It is important to use a sanitary tee where the trap arm tees to the drain and vent (if there is a vent). A combo tee, or Wye tee is against code for this position because of the physics of siphons (you want to prevent a siphon in your trap). I was looking for a Fernco Sanitary tee and some places call the Fernco PQT-150 a sanitary tee but Fernco themselves doesn't call it a sanitary tee....So I would research that more or just use Fernco couplers with a PVC sanitary tee inbetween.

If there is no vent going up vertically from the fitting in the wall, then one should be installed. This too, is not that hard. Depending on your plumbing codes in your area, if you are UPC, then Air Admitance valves (AAV) are only allowed with inspector approval, but if your area goes by IPC, then AAVs are okay. Frankly, at this point in time, I don't care much about what the government thinks, but that's up to you. An AAV looks like this...


An AAV must be installed 4" above the trap weir. I installed an AAV under my kitchen sink and I plan on using one on my new bathroom vanity. The vanity AAV will be in the attic though instead of in the cabinet.



As far as your shutoff valves, it looks like the cold water valve might be leaking? It has green around it which is copper corrosion. If you wanted to change them, I guess now's the time. A sharkbite (Push on fitting) with a 1/4 turn valve and a 3/8" fitting (for your supply line) would work.

But really, sweating copper isn't nearly as hard as it seems. A propane torch, solder and flux (cleaner) is all you need. Heat up the old valve at the fitting (after the water is turned off) , and it will pull right off using pliers (I would do this even if you plan on using a Sharkbite so you don't lose any pipe length and don't have to cut the old valve out). But if you want to stay with copper, clean up the pipe with Emory cloth, apply flux, put a new 1/2" copper to 1/2" male pipe thread (MPT) fitting on there. Then just heat the pipe and fitting with the torch until the solder flows into the joint. The solder just magically goes right into the joint with hardly any effort on your part. It's almost foolproof. I'm not a plumber but I've sweated many fittings and never had one fail. I prefer PEX but I like expansion fittings and am just slightly leery of Sharkbite (push-on) fittings, although, I have used a few Sharkbites and haven't had one fail yet. I don't think I would want to bury a Sharkbite fitting in a wall though.

 

[AdrianeS]

While you’re twisting and bending under there, if you have any plumbing skills, I’d certainly get rid of your shut off valves and add ball valves.

I don't have any plumbing skills, but I'm absolutely willing to learn. I hate paying for anything I can do myself. In any case, the shutoff valves I currently have don't work and need replacing anyways. I was planning on looking up some YouTube videos and getting a few books on plumbing so I can learn how to do it myself.

 

[AdrianeS]

Looking at the OP's next photo, I am guessing the pipe coming in from the left of her photo you reproduced is the trap arm for the sink, and that the flex pipe "trap arm" was put in to accommodate the lower outlet from the disposal. Also, it looks like the drain might be iron - and modifying that is a pro job. If she ditches the disposal, is there a simple way to re-plumb this?

I don't want to get rid of the disposal. One of the flex tubes you're seeing is for the dishwasher.

 

[AdrianeS]

OP said she doesn't know plumbing. I have twisted a lot of pipe in 30 years as a homeowner but I would not tackle sweating copper. Is this something a newbie could do using a combination of Sharkbite, brass nipples, and PEX?

I didn't realize copper was so difficult to work with. The only thing I'd like to do to them, if I'm able to learn how, would be to replace the shutoff valves because they no longer work. I got a quote to have it done by a plumber and the price wasn't too awful, but still, I really prefer to do things myself as much as possible.

 

[AdrianeS]

I wouldn't want to get rid of the disposal if it were me. The trap adaptor needs to be moved down to a level that gives you a 1/4" per foot slope downward on the trap arm. It can be more than 1/4" per foot but the total downward slope can not be greater than the diameter of the trap arm (1 1/2"). Right now, your trap arm has to go uphill to get to the drain (through the flexible tube). Water doesn't flow uphill and is keeping your drain pipes flooded with icky water. Your disposal may have standing water in it too.

From the photo, we can't really tell if there is even a vent on this drain. In older houses, sometimes, they plumbed what essentially is a "S" trap situation, without a vent. like this..

View attachment 29937

This one is against code as well....
View attachment 29938

Both those situations can set up a siphon and suck the water out of your trap.

The OPs situation, though, can't be seen until some wall is removed (or inspect through the gaps around the current setup to see if there is a vent).

I think, at the very least, the trap adaptor (where the trap arm goes into the drain system), needs to be lowered. It can be done fairly easy using Fernco Rubberized repair couplings.

View attachment 29939

The wall will have to be opened up...But you were already going to repair it anyway.

These Fernco repair adaptors are often used to transition from iron pipe to PVC or ABS (whatever you use). Fernco can be used on virtually any type pipe. Iron pipe can be cut easily with a Sawzall with a metal cutting blade. A hacksaw will cut iron pipe but in a confined space, it would take forever.

It is important to use a sanitary tee where the trap arm tees to the drain and vent (if there is a vent). A combo tee, or Wye tee is against code for this position because of the physics of siphons (you want to prevent a siphon in your trap). I was looking for a Fernco Sanitary tee and some places call the Fernco PQT-150 a sanitary tee but Fernco themselves doesn't call it a sanitary tee....So I would research that more or just use Fernco couplers with a PVC sanitary tee inbetween.

If there is no vent going up vertically from the fitting in the wall, then one should be installed. This too, is not that hard. Depending on your plumbing codes in your area, if you are UPC, then Air Admitance valves (AAV) are only allowed with inspector approval, but if your area goes by IPC, then AAVs are okay. Frankly, at this point in time, I don't care much about what the government thinks, but that's up to you. An AAV looks like this...
View attachment 29940

An AAV must be installed 4" above the trap weir. I installed an AAV under my kitchen sink and I plan on using one on my new bathroom vanity. The vanity AAV will be in the attic though instead of in the cabinet.

View attachment 29942

As far as your shutoff valves, it looks like the cold water valve might be leaking? It has green around it which is copper corrosion. If you wanted to change them, I guess now's the time. A sharkbite (Push on fitting) with a 1/4 turn valve and a 3/8" fitting (for your supply line) would work.

But really, sweating copper isn't nearly as hard as it seems. A propane torch, solder and flux (cleaner) is all you need. Heat up the old valve at the fitting (after the water is turned off) , and it will pull right off using pliers (I would do this even if you plan on using a Sharkbite so you don't lose any pipe length and don't have to cut the old valve out). But if you want to stay with copper, clean up the pipe with Emory cloth, apply flux, put a new 1/2" copper to 1/2" male pipe thread (MPT) fitting on there. Then just heat the pipe and fitting with the torch until the solder flows into the joint. The solder just magically goes right into the joint with hardly any effort on your part. It's almost foolproof. I'm not a plumber but I've sweated many fittings and never had one fail. I prefer PEX but I like expansion fittings and am just slightly leery of Sharkbite (push-on) fittings, although, I have used a few Sharkbites and haven't had one fail yet. I don't think I would want to bury a Sharkbite fitting in a wall though.

Thank you so much for being so thorough! This is extremely helpful. I do have a sawzall and a small solder gun. No torch though but I could easily buy a small one for cheap.

What does "sweating copper" mean exactly? Is it just the process of heating it up? Just curious.

How do I know if my pipe is vented or not? Where the trap goes into the wall, it connects to a pipe that runs up vertically. Is this the vent?

So where the trap arm connects to a flex tube, which then connects to what I believe is the vent, should this entire assembly be altered? I'm not fully understanding what to do here. Currently, water flows downwards into the ptrap, then up into arm, then up again into the vent. Since water obviously doesn't flow upwards, how do I need to modify this? Should I remove the flex pipe and get a new trap arm that would bring the it almost level with the vent pipe, where I could then slope it appropriately before connecting to the vent?

Finally, how do I determine which codes regulate my area? I'm in the USA in Ohio. I'm not necessarily terribly concerned with meeting code but often time I learn a lot just by reading them. And as far as electrical code goes, I always follow that because I believe it's just the safest way to do things.

Thanks again for all of your help.

 

[bud16415]

With the .5” copper it would be best to take a small close space tubing cutter (ring cutter) and cut the lines just below the valves, after turning off the water. If the solder hasn’t dripped down the tubing you can clean up the cut ends a little and slip new Shark-Bite valves right on and convert all the rest to PEX from there up. If there is some solder on the outside that would cause an issue with sealing the Shark-Bite heat it with a propane torch and wipe the solder off with a rag.



As to the trap and running back up hill thru the flex pipe. What you have there is like a real long trap and the whole thing will fill up until the level is the same on both sides. Water is really not running up hill it is just seeking its own level. I’m not saying I like it but it seems to be working.



That tail piece that is made to bellow is taking up a lot of height and maybe that tee could be turned 90 degrees and a different type of inline trap could be used to get you up to the exit height. I think it is called a U Trap.

 

[Eddie_T]

The exit port of the disposal sets the height. If it's lower than the connection in the wall doesn't the disposal become part of the trap?

 

[bud16415]

The exit port of the disposal sets the height. If it's lower than the connection in the wall doesn't the disposal become part of the trap?

It is hard to tell in the photo but the exit of the disposal looks close to the final exit in height.



For sure I wouldn’t want the disposal to be inside the trap height.

 

[Ron Van]

What does "sweating copper" mean exactly? Is it just the process of heating it up? Just curious.

Yes, Basically it means soldering two pieces of copper together using a propane torch. It's not too difficult but the hardest part is not catching anything on fire while using the torch. I have used pieces of wood that I throw away later but others use cookie sheets but they actually sell burn-proof sheets for this purpose...

How do I know if my pipe is vented or not? Where the trap goes into the wall, it connects to a pipe that runs up vertically. Is this the vent?

Could be. Is there also a pipe going down for the drain? It should look like this

So where the trap arm connects to a flex tube, which then connects to what I believe is the vent, should this entire assembly be altered? I'm not fully understanding what to do here. Currently, water flows downwards into the ptrap, then up into arm, then up again into the vent. Since water obviously doesn't flow upwards, how do I need to modify this? Should I remove the flex pipe and get a new trap arm that would bring the it almost level with the vent pipe, where I could then slope it appropriately before connecting to the vent?

The drain connection needs to be lower than the trap weir. So what you have is something like this


To fix it right, you need to cut out your wall a little more to gain access to the drain plumbing. Then make a couple cuts on the drain line.



Glue together a new PVC part with 2" pipe (or 1 1/2" - whatever is in the wall now) and a PVC SaniTee going to a 1 1/2" trap adaptor (Hub to socket they call it at Lowes) on the side that comes out of the wall. Use PVC Purple Primer and PVC glue to put the new parts together and then use Fernco rubber couplings to connect the new parts back onto the original wall drain line.


It will then look like this.





You may have to substitute different sizes depending on what you find in your wall.

Finally, how do I determine which codes regulate my area? I'm in the USA in Ohio. I'm not necessarily terribly concerned with meeting code but often time I learn a lot just by reading them. And as far as electrical code goes, I always follow that because I believe it's just the safest way to do things.

That's how I do it. Go by the code for the most part but I don't get permits or invite the government into my business. They don't consult with me on their business either.

Codes are determined by each county. Google, "Your County, and state" plumbing code.

Here's what I get when I google, Guntersville, Alabama plumbing codes. It lists all the building codes including Plumbing, electrical, sewer, etc. If I dig down to part 6, it says...
...*****************************************
(6)
International Plumbing Code, 2006 Edition, including appendix chapters B, C, D, E, F, and G as published by the International Code Council, with the additions, insertions, deletions and changes as follows:

Section 101.1. Insert: The City of Guntersville, Alabama

Section 103.1. General. Delete text and add the following: "The Building Official of the City shall be responsible for the plumbing inspection and shall be known as the Code Official."

Section 106.6.2. Insert: The following schedule

PLUMBING PERMIT FEE SCHEDULE

Permit Issuance

1. For issuing each permit: . . . .etc
******************************************
So it says we use IPC plumbing code with with amendments that they list afterwards. Generally for us, the only amendments are the fees.
Google IPC codes or UPC codes and you will get the entire plumbing code.

Thanks again for all of your help.

 

[AdrianeS]

Yes, Basically it means soldering two pieces of copper together using a propane torch. It's not too difficult but the hardest part is not catching anything on fire while using the torch. I have used pieces of wood that I throw away later but others use cookie sheets but they actually sell burn-proof sheets for this purpose...

I really appreciate all of your help! Now I have another issue though, I pushed on the trap arm to look at other connections and water came pouring out of the joint. Inspecting futher, the pipe pulled straight out of the fitting. There isn't any threading on the pvc now for me to screw it on, so how do I replace this and stop the leak? I will most definitely buy the proper pieces and fix this but for the moment, what can I do?

Someone, not sure if it was you, mentioned the height of the dishwasher pipe appearing to be level with the inlet for the vent. I checked it and the dishwasher pipe is just a bit higher. So I'm guessing when I reroute the vent arm, I should place the sanitary tee so it's higher than the dishwasher pipe?

Also, if you don't mind helping me a little further, you were right that there is a small leak at the shutoff valves (which need replaced anyway). So my choices are either soldering or Sharkbit fittings then? I watched a couple videos on the fittings which make it seem like a relatively easy job.

Could be. Is there also a pipe going down for the drain?

Yes, it runs vertically both up and down.

 

[AdrianeS]

It is hard to tell in the photo but the exit of the disposal looks close to the final exit in height.



For sure I wouldn’t want the disposal to be inside the trap height.

The disposal is higher, so I'll need to correct that too. My question about patching plaster turned into a much bigger issue here! I'm glad someone pointed it out though. Fixing now could save me from a potential water leak down the road..

 

[AdrianeS]

With the .5” copper it would be best to take a small close space tubing cutter (ring cutter) and cut the lines just below the valves, after turning off the water. If the solder hasn’t dripped down the tubing you can clean up the cut ends a little and slip new Shark-Bite valves right on and convert all the rest to PEX from there up. If there is some solder on the outside that would cause an issue with sealing the Shark-Bite heat it with a propane torch and wipe the solder off with a rag.



As to the trap and running back up hill thru the flex pipe. What you have there is like a real long trap and the whole thing will fill up until the level is the same on both sides. Water is really not running up hill it is just seeking its own level. I’m not saying I like it but it seems to be working.



That tail piece that is made to bellow is taking up a lot of height and maybe that tee could be turned 90 degrees and a different type of inline trap could be used to get you up to the exit height. I think it is called a U Trap.

So run PEX all the way up to the sink? Is there a reason why I can't just keep the copper? The only reason I ask is because there's another line that runs off the hot water to the dishwasher and I'm not sure how to deal with that, though I'm sure I could learn.

You can see it in the top left of this picture:

 

[AdrianeS]

I just want to thank everyone who has posted here. This helped me find an issue I never would have known about had it not been for the people who pointed it out and thoroughly explained how to fix it. My little wall patch turned into something much bigger!

 

[bud16415]

So run PEX all the way up to the sink? Is there a reason why I can't just keep the copper? The only reason I ask is because there's another line that runs off the hot water to the dishwasher and I'm not sure how to deal with that, though I'm sure I could learn.

You can see it in the top left of this picture:
View attachment 29968

I used to be a copper guy, but became a PEX guy and once I switch to PEX with a repair it is just so simple to keep going with PEX. You can get all the same connectors in PEX for the dishwasher etc.



There would be no reason to not do copper though. On a 1-10 DIY scale PEX is about a 1.5 and copper is about a 4.5 where 1 is super easy.

 

[AdrianeS]

I used to be a copper guy, but became a PEX guy and once I switch to PEX with a repair it is just so simple to keep going with PEX. You can get all the same connectors in PEX for the dishwasher etc.



There would be no reason to not do copper though. On a 1-10 DIY scale PEX is about a 1.5 and copper is about a 4.5 where 1 is super easy.

Thank you! While you're here, I'm having a bit of an emergency with the vent arm now. If you scroll back a couple comments you'll see what I posted. Any idea how to fix this like right now?

 

[Eddie_T]

If you are talking about the unthreaded part of the trap connector maybe this video will help;

 

[Eddie_T]

THe disposal outlet needs to be a bit higher than the vent connection so it drains to the tee. IOW the Basin and the disposal need to drain to the tee and the tee has to be higher than the vent connection for all to drain downhill.

 

[Snoonyb]

I really appreciate all of your help! Now I have another issue though, I pushed on the trap arm to look at other connections and water came pouring out of the joint. Inspecting futher, the pipe pulled straight out of the fitting. There isn't any threading on the pvc now for me to screw it on, so how do I replace this and stop the leak? I will most definitely buy the proper pieces and fix this but for the moment, what can I do?

Someone, not sure if it was you, mentioned the height of the dishwasher pipe appearing to be level with the inlet for the vent. I checked it and the dishwasher pipe is just a bit higher. So I'm guessing when I reroute the vent arm, I should place the sanitary tee so it's higher than the dishwasher pipe?

Also, if you don't mind helping me a little further, you were right that there is a small leak at the shutoff valves (which need replaced anyway). So my choices are either soldering or Sharkbit fittings then? I watched a couple videos on the fittings which make it seem like a relatively easy job.


Yes, it runs vertically both up and down.

Your trap assembly, is called a slip joint trap and the nut will loosen and it would be a good idea to replace the washer, as you reassemble.

View attachment 29967

 

[AdrianeS]

I used to be a copper guy, but became a PEX guy and once I switch to PEX with a repair it is just so simple to keep going with PEX. You can get all the same connectors in PEX for the dishwasher etc.



There would be no reason to not do copper though. On a 1-10 DIY scale PEX is about a 1.5 and copper is about a 4.5 where 1 is super easy.

Got it, thanks!