Running a 110V outlet + light from 220V source

Discussion in 'Electrical and Wiring' started by Mike-in-GA, Dec 30, 2013.

  1. Dec 30, 2013 #1

    Mike-in-GA

    Mike-in-GA

    Mike-in-GA

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    Hello All,

    My cabin receives water from a deep-well pump. The pump motor requires a 220V power supply, which is fed from the cabin’s electrical service panel. The well, electrical box and pressure tank are located about 200’ from the cabin, and housed under a 10’X12’ shed; I would like to install a light and at least one outlet in the shed. Question: can a 110V outlet and a separate 110V light be fed off of the 220V line that powers the pump? Or would I have to run a separate line from the cabin to the shed?

    I am nowhere near comfortable doing this level of electrical work, and plan to hire a qualified electrician for this project. Just want to be informed so I can scope the project appropriately.

    Thanks much!

    Mike
     
  2. Dec 31, 2013 #2

    nealtw

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    I think what you want is a small sub panel in the shed with breakers for the new light and the pump there. The question will be, size of wire you have and breakers at the house and what the pump uses?
     
  3. Dec 31, 2013 #3

    Wuzzat?

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    If you don't want to change wire sizes and the pump runs half the time and you run the lights and outlet only occasionally then you can store energy in batteries in the shed from a 220vac to 12/24/48 vdc charger and use an inverter to supply the AC voltage from the deep-cycle batteries. You need to vent the hydrogen put out during charging, though.

    Get enough bids to cluster around a center value.
     
  4. Dec 31, 2013 #4

    kok328

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    A 110V circuit requires a neutral leg. A 220V circuit does not have a neutral leg.
    The electrician will have to run a new circuit for 110V outlets/lights.
     
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  5. Dec 31, 2013 #5

    JoeD

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    It all depends if the line to the pump has a neutral wire. If it does then a small sub panel with a double breaker for the pump and a 15 amp breaker for the light and receptacle is the best solution.

    You are not permitted to run two feeds to a detached building. So if you do not have a neutral then you need to replace the feed cable or pull a neutral wire if the building is fed by conduit.
     
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  6. Dec 31, 2013 #6

    Wuzzat?

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    I have a fist-sized power convertor that does Germany 220v to US 110v and it might work for various loads and certainly for incandescent lights. IIRC, 1600W, 50W minimum, and it may not care about 50 Hz or 60 Hz.
     
  7. Dec 31, 2013 #7

    nealtw

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    Perhaps he could find a light that would work on 220 volts and forget the outlet.
     
  8. Jan 1, 2014 #8

    Wuzzat?

    Wuzzat?

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    Putting two 120v incand. bulbs in series will sort of work; one may last long and the other not so long due to somewhat unequal voltage sharing.
    Using four bulbs, two in parallel in series with two in parallel may lessen this effect.
    Don't do this with CFLs, though.

    But with the convertor you can run some serious stuff as long as those things don't mind being powered by a square wave instead of a sine wave. Small power tools, etc..
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2014
  9. Jan 1, 2014 #9

    JoeD

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    A lot of nonsense being proposed here. A feed line with a neutral is what you need.
     
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  10. Jan 1, 2014 #10

    Wuzzat?

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    My advice is worth every penny that was paid for it.:2cents:
     
  11. Jan 1, 2014 #11

    JoeD

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    Not even that much most of the time.
     
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  12. Jan 1, 2014 #12

    Wuzzat?

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  13. Jan 2, 2014 #13

    bud16415

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    Warning: Long rant having little to do with the question asked.

    This is the type of thread I think many would find interesting and in reading it on my phone when on vacation I was looking forward to coming back and see what advice was offered and what the OP’s “Mike” take was on the advice given.

    When I read a thread like this I build a mental picture realizing a lot of crucial information may still need to be gathered. I saw a cabin in the woods and at quite some distance 200’ a well house / shed. Quite common around here as the owner wanted the cabin nestled in the woods and the guy that came to drill the well said this is where I can get to with my rig. In my vision I didn’t see the shed going in right away. Like normally done the casing is set the trench dug, plumping and wire put in and the casing sealed off and a drywall bucket stuck over it to mark the spot. Then someone built the shed to offer a bit more protection and have a place to keep a shovel and the mower. I could be all wrong in fact and none of that is important information in helping him.

    What we knew, deep well, 220v, panel in cabin, well electrical box and pressure tank are 200’ and in the shed, Mike is in GA and maybe his cabin is also. We know the shed is 10x12, and then his question along with he doesn’t feel comfortable doing the project but is really looking for information to guide him thru the unknown with an unknown electrician doing the work.

    Given what we know and that Mike has only posted 3 times. I could see the conversation going several directions. One being how to find an honest competent contractor to do the job. Another being convincing him with some help and guidance maybe this could be a DIY job. Or third have him provide additional information so we could arm him what to expect when he has a contractor come and look. We could also offer him feedback after that meeting as to cost and what services are really needed.

    Again just me reading into the story but I have a feeling if Mike has to dig 200’ of new trench and pay for materials to rewire the whole thing plus labor just to have a light and an outlet he might not cost justify the expense.

    I found JoeD’s first reply to be the most informative. If Mike could have looked in the box in the shed and told us what he saw there I think a plan of action could have been formed. Say he reported back (and he may still) “I have a red, black, green and yellow wire coming in thru a pipe. His tank has to have some kind of pressure switch and contacts etc. to cycle the pump and maybe a disconnect also. We don’t know what any of that is yet also. But knowing the number of wires and colors would be a good start.

    Some of the more obtuse suggestions at best have been given way too early in the investigation process. If it’s found as kok328 suggests the shed doesn’t have the proper neutral leg. And Mike were to come back with I had my man out and he wants this huge amount of money I can’t afford for a single light. Then maybe there is some solution outside the box to offer. There is always the possibility also the guy mike brings out might not be as qualified as he thinks and when seeing Mike isn’t going to go for the big job may just offer a less than code option involving maybe ground rods and GFCI outlets out in the shed. We could at that point offer advice on the risk some of these fixes may have. There might be a 100 ways to skin the cat here but hammering the OP right off the get go with 50 of them most likely has them garnering advice on another forum.
     
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  14. Jan 4, 2014 #14

    Mike-in-GA

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    Bud16415 and all,

    Thank you so very much for your advice and ideas. I am sorry for the delay in responding; I had to help manage a medical issue with a family member and am just now coming up for air.

    I will look in the box and provide more detail, perhaps attach a picture of the box and how things are wired, if not too late for more feedback.

    Best to all,

    Mike
     
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  15. Jan 4, 2014 #15

    bud16415

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    Welcome back and hope all is well with family. Take your time no one is going any place.
     
  16. Jan 5, 2014 #16

    CallMeVilla

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    We need more info ... If the 220v line is a 3-wire (red, black, ground) then he lacks the neutral. However, if the 220v line is a 4-wire (red, black neutral, ground) then he does have the necessary neutral. To wire a 110v outlet to 220v the 220v source, it must have a neutral conductor that is 110v away from the hot leg. If you don't have the neutral, you must provide a new circuit.

    Next, is the circuit a 20A or 30A? It is my understanding a 30A circuit CANNOT be used for a 110V outlet.
     
  17. Jan 5, 2014 #17

    Wuzzat?

    Wuzzat?

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    Because the 110v outlets are not rated for 30A? In that case a smaller fuse just upstream of the outlet may help.
     
  18. Jan 6, 2014 #18

    nealtw

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    That's why you had another breacker box in the shed.
     
  19. Jan 6, 2014 #19

    Parrothead

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    That won't work in the US. European 220v is essentially like our 120 in that it uses 1hot and 1neutral. A US 240 uses 2hots. Not the same.
     
  20. Jan 6, 2014 #20

    Wuzzat?

    Wuzzat?

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    AFAIK, if the 220v box input and 120v output are isolated by an internal transformer, it will work.

    Update: While trying to figure out why only two lights out of three work on my hallway light fixture I checked out my Norelco box with an ohmmeter.
    There is a direct connection between one of the input pins and one of the output pins.
    So, the box uses an internal autotransformer and the 120v output will give you 120vac with one pin being 120v above ground or one pin being 240 + 120 = 360 vac above ground.
    This may not be a problem depending on if the downstream 120v loads are isolated from ground.

    BTW, what I've learned from the hallway fixture is that screwing a bulb in tighter does not mean a more certain connection.
    One bulb of this fixture did not work in the basement according to the ohmmeter but mounted on the hallway ceiling with the power on I discovered that one bulb screwed 3/4ths or 7/8ths of the way in lights the bulb whereas screwing it all the way in puts the bulb out.

    So now all three bulbs work :) and we don't have to buy a new fixture.

    You know what they say about assumptions. :D
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2014

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