Adding a 2nd Outlet

[glouie]

Hi,

I apologize if this is a double post.. I tried posting this once before, but it seems like it got lost when I hit the submit thread button..

I want to add a GFCI outlet below the Master Bath toilet to power a Heated Toilet Seat / Bidet (5.5 Amp) for my wife. The only accessible source of power is an existing circuit wired for the Master Bedroom TV on the opposite side of the common wall.

The house was built new in 1997, and there was an existing electrical outlet about a foot above the floor. I tapped into that outlet a few years ago to add an outlet about 5 feet up the wall to mount the flat screen TV.

Is it okay to tap into the that same circuit to add an outlet on the reverse side of the wall, to power the the bidet heater.

Is it safe to do this? What's the potential if there's too much power draw? Popping the circuit breaker?

thanks in advance for any advice.

-George

 

[slownsteady]

The answer lies in the specs on how much power the new stuff will draw. My instinct is not very much, but it also depends on what else is on the circuit.
Yes the breaker should trip if you draw too much power, but what a PITA that would be whenever it happened.

 

[nealtw]

Everything in the bathroom should be on the same circuit I think. But that wouldn't stop me from doing it. You do want to know what else is on the circuit and add up all the uses to see if it can handle it.
I would put the gfci on the bedroom side, might get tested more often.

 

[KULTULZ]

Everything in the bathroom should be on the same circuit I think. But that wouldn't stop me from doing it. You do want to know what else is on the circuit and add up all the uses to see if it can handle it.

I would put the gfci on the bedroom side, might get tested more often.

Usually, the bathroom has to have at the minimum one dedicated 20A circuit (GFCI). The lighting circuit is usually separate (15A) (may have be GFCI).

You would have to perform a circuit map on the TV circuit to find out how much wattage draw you have. Is the circuit 15 or 20A?

New generation GFCI receptacles are self-testing.

Either that or turn off the TV when you use the John... :rofl:

(The above is subject to verification by a licensed electrician who knows what he is talking about. I know just enough to be dangerous... :hide

 

[bud16415]

I personally would do just what you have suggested cut your outlet hole in the bathroom wall for what they call an old work box. That is one that has clamps built into it to secure it to the wall. pull the outlet out in the bedroom after killing the power to it and fish a wire between the new location and the old box. Join the wires with a pigtail there with wire nuts. Secure the box in the bathroom and attach the GFIC to the line screws only nothing to load.

You should have no problem with the extra load and if it did draw too much power with the tv etc it would trip the breaker is all. I doubt you will even get close to that though.

I would want the GFCI in the bathroom and the only thing it controls is the seat myself.

The pros should be along soon and tell you what code has to say about it.

 

[afjes_2016]

Well, the bathroom should be a self contained dedicated circuit for either that bathroom alone or only to another bathroom so is it a no-no according to code :nono: but I won't tell if no one else on this board snitches :rofl:

As suggested many times and I am just chiming in with my own two cents yes, use a GFCI receptacle and put it in the box in the bathroom, not the bedroom for convenience if it trips. Nothing like getting off the hopper to go reset a GFCI

The use of an old work box would be best, just be sure that the wall depth will accomodate it as the GFCI receptacles are deep and take up quite a bit of room in the box. Be sure you use the proper wire gauge going from the bedroom box to the new box.

But do check what is on the existing circuit first before you go through all that work. Heaters normally take a lot of watts to run, it may not trip the GFCI but will trip the breaker.

 

[nealtw]

Well, the bathroom should be a self contained dedicated circuit for either that bathroom alone or only to another bathroom so is it a no-no according to code :nono: but I won't tell if no one else on this board snitches :rofl:

As suggested many times and I am just chiming in with my own two cents yes, use a GFCI receptacle and put it in the box in the bathroom, not the bedroom for convenience if it trips. Nothing like getting off the hopper to go reset a GFCI

The use of an old work box would be best, just be sure that the wall depth will accomodate it as the GFCI receptacles are deep and take up quite a bit of room in the box. Be sure you use the proper wire gauge going from the bedroom box to the new box.

But do check what is on the existing circuit first before you go through all that work. Heaters normally take a lot of watts to run, it may not trip the GFCI but will trip the breaker.

I did say put it in the bedroom for convenience but I was also thinking of the size of the box might be better there.
I doubt anyone is going to get off the toilet to reset it and get back on the toilet, and personally I don't like hugging toilets that much.
What problem would be indicated if it did trip, not likely to reset.
:trophy:

 

[Snoonyb]

Since this is a Bidet, is it switched, timed or always on?

 

[glouie]

Thanks everyone for the responses! I think I'm going to try this out. Would it be best to run the wire from the newer TV outlet, or the old original installed other? Or does it even matter? For what it's worth, the new outlet would be inches from the original outlet, and a few feet from the TV outlet.

I guess if it consistently tripping the breaker, well just uninstall the bidet and leave the new outlet unused.

Since this is a Bidet, is it switched, timed or always on?

It's a always on, but I think it only draws power when you sit on it. The seat is heated, and the water is only heated when you use it.

 

[KULTULZ]

You should have no problem with the extra load and if it did draw too much power with the tv etc it would trip the breaker is all. I doubt you will even get close to that though.

I would want the GFCI in the bathroom and the only thing it controls is the seat myself.

It all depends on the total load on the bedroom circuit. TV, cable box, DVD, sound system? A booster box to watch porno...

An overload will trip the breaker not the GFCI.

 

[afjes_2016]

...Would it be best to run the wire from the newer TV outlet, or the old original installed other? Or does it even matter? For what it's worth, the new outlet would be inches from the original outlet, and a few feet from the TV outlet...

Either outlet, it does not matter whether you add an additional outlet from one or the other. However, please check the conductor count in the outlet you are running the new line from. You can not have an overloaded outlet box. Making it simple, if using 12 gauge wire there should only be no more than 2 romex cables in the box. If 14 gauge you can have up to 3. Here is a chart for future reference that helps you calculate the number of conductors allowed in a given size box.

Only inches from; be sure though when you plan where you will put the new outlet box on the other side of the wall you have sufficient space. Meaning, don't put the boxes back to back in error or you will not be able to put the new box in the wall as it will hit the back of the other box on the other side of the wall. Also when planning where to put the new outlet box because it is not right up against a stud. Leave about 4 inches from the stub to the new placement. When cutting the hole for the new outlet box be sure to cut it evenly and not damage the sheet rock near the cuts. It is important that the sheet rock is in tact by the cut edge so that the clamps on the old work box has something to grip to or the box will never be able to be tightened enough to stay in the wall. Since you said the house was built in 1997 I would assume it is only sheet rock on the wall studs (if there is tile on the bathroom wall where the new box will go be sure you figure that thickness) along with the thickness of the sheet rock). If so you should be ok. The clamps on the old work box will only open so far. If the wall material is too thick you won't be able to open the clamps enough to get a grip on the wall without the clamp falling off the screw holding it.

If you will be using an "old work box" (this is a 20 cubic inch box, it will hold the GFCI receptalce nicely, be sure though that the depth of the wall cavity can handle it; you can also use the 14 inch which is not quite as deep but will take more to get the GFCI receptacle in it) be sure that you cut the hole for the box carefully. Don't make the hole too large or the clamps will not be able to do their job and the box will pull through the new cut in the wall. Do not use this particular old work box as it will not be able to fit the GFCI receptacle in it.

 

[bud16415]

It all depends on the total load on the bedroom circuit. TV, cable box, DVD, sound system? A booster box to watch porno...

An overload will trip the breaker not the GFCI.

I know that. The reason I would place the GFCI in the bath room and not the bedroom is first I think they should be located in the area where they are most likely to be tripped. Secondly in a bedroom someone will place a dresser in front of it. I don’t know the first thing about a seat warmer or why anyone would want one, but if you are mixing 120v with twisting wires and salty water and bare feet and poor aim, I know I would want one.

 

[Snoonyb]

I guess if it consistently tripping the breaker, well just uninstall the bidet and leave the new outlet unused.

It's a always on, but I think it only draws power when you sit on it. The seat is heated, and the water is only heated when you use it.

A GFCI will also trip when there is an instant high demand, so if there is a method of testing using an existing GFCI, you might consider that.

 

[KULTULZ]

A GFCI will also trip when there is an instant high demand, so if there is a method of testing using an existing GFCI, you might consider that.

Operation

A GFCI works by measuring the current leaving one side of a power source (the so-called "live" or "hot wire"), and comparing it to current returning on the other (the "neutral" side). If they are not equal, then some of the current must be leaking in an unwanted way, and the GFCI shuts the power off.

SOURCE - https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/GFCI

 

[KULTULZ]

The reason I would place the GFCI in the bath room and not the bedroom is first I think they should be located in the area where they are most likely to be tripped.

I would take it one step further. I would put a blank face GFCI above the tank to easily reset it (the actual receptacle behind the toilet - away from any possible free-fire zone) and with a duplex one can also energize their bidet spray... :rofl:

 

[glouie]

Either outlet, it does not matter whether you add an additional outlet from one or the other. However, please check the conductor count in the outlet you are running the new line from. You can not have an overloaded outlet box. Making it simple, if using 12 gauge wire there should only be no more than 2 romex cables in the box. If 14 gauge you can have up to 3. Here is a chart for future reference that helps you calculate the number of conductors allowed in a given size box.

Only inches from; be sure though when you plan where you will put the new outlet box on the other side of the wall you have sufficient space. Meaning, don't put the boxes back to back in error or you will not be able to put the new box in the wall as it will hit the back of the other box on the other side of the wall. Also when planning where to put the new outlet box because it is not right up against a stud. Leave about 4 inches from the stub to the new placement. When cutting the hole for the new outlet box be sure to cut it evenly and not damage the sheet rock near the cuts. It is important that the sheet rock is in tact by the cut edge so that the clamps on the old work box has something to grip to or the box will never be able to be tightened enough to stay in the wall. Since you said the house was built in 1997 I would assume it is only sheet rock on the wall studs (if there is tile on the bathroom wall where the new box will go be sure you figure that thickness) along with the thickness of the sheet rock). If so you should be ok. The clamps on the old work box will only open so far. If the wall material is too thick you won't be able to open the clamps enough to get a grip on the wall without the clamp falling off the screw holding it.

If you will be using an "old work box" (this is a 20 cubic inch box, it will hold the GFCI receptalce nicely, be sure though that the depth of the wall cavity can handle it; you can also use the 14 inch which is not quite as deep but will take more to get the GFCI receptacle in it) be sure that you cut the hole for the box carefully. Don't make the hole too large or the clamps will not be able to do their job and the box will pull through the new cut in the wall. Do not use this particular old work box as it will not be able to fit the GFCI receptacle in it.

Yes.. thanks for the tips.. :thbup:

Would temporarily running a heavy duty extension cable from the bedroom outlet to the bathroom to plug the toilet seat in, be a fair test to see if installing will trip the circuit breaker?

 

[Snoonyb]

Yes.. thanks for the tips.. :thbup:

Would temporarily running a heavy duty extension cable from the bedroom outlet to the bathroom to plug the toilet seat in, be a fair test to see if installing will trip the circuit breaker?

Only if the recep. is powered by an AFCI protected breaker. Both GFCI and AFCI are sensitive to instant differences, while standard breakers will fail, they are less sensitive. And you are only pulling 5+amps.

 

[glouie]

Only if the recep. is powered by an AFCI protected breaker. Both GFCI and AFCI are sensitive to instant differences, while standard breakers will fail, they are less sensitive. And you are only pulling 5+amps.

what is AFCI?

I'm not as concerned about the GFCI tripping, as I'm reasonably sure it should hold, since this is a pretty standard item for some bathrooms. I'm concerned about the increased load on the circuit overall causing the stander breaker in the breaker box to trip.

 

[nealtw]

AFCI breaker will trip when there is an arc that might not trip a regular breaker

 

[Snoonyb]

what is AFCI?

Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter and is current code, where it has been adopted, for bedrooms, laundry rooms and additional areas as adopted.

I'm not as concerned about the GFCI tripping, as I'm reasonably sure it should hold, since this is a pretty standard item for some bathrooms. I'm concerned about the increased load on the circuit overall causing the stander breaker in the breaker box to trip.

A GFCI is a Ground Fault Circuit Interruptor and in your case, is the safety device for the recep. your seat warmer will be powered from.

If you are just concerned about the breaker that controls the circuit you are adding the GFCI too, then just test from that circuit.