Adding a 2nd Outlet

[KULTULZ]

I'm not as concerned about the GFCI tripping, as I'm reasonably sure it should hold, since this is a pretty standard item for some bathrooms.

:down:

I wonder how many have said the same before they were lit up?

I'm concerned about the increased load on the circuit overall causing the stander breaker in the breaker box to trip.

I think I have read more than one advisement that a circuit load calculation should be performed.

 

[glouie]

:down:

I wonder how many have said the same before they were lit up?

I think I have read more than one advisement that a circuit load calculation should be performed.

I don't understand what you mean by "lit up". Isn't the point behind the gfci to prevent shock? Thinking that the gfci won't trip in s independent if whether the circuit load is too much.

As for the load calculation, I have no problem doing it, just thinking of other ways to do a practical test of the circuit prior to cutting into the drywall.

 

[nealtw]

Run the extension cord and plug it in turn it on, turn on anything else on the same circuit, test done.
GFCI read when power goes to ground and trips. Circuit breaker trips when the load is to much.

So if you are touching something live and also touch ground the GFCI will trip. If it didn't trip and the load you were providing was more than the breaker can handle it would trip.

 

[KULTULZ]

...sigh... :hide:

 

[afjes_2016]

glouie: I just want to clarify some things here. You may know it but may not but figured I would chime in.

GFCI and AFCI responses are not the same.
GFCI is "ground fault protection"
AFCI is "arc fault protection"

Ground fault protection: In the case of a GFCI receptacle (or breaker), the electronics monitor the current coming in on the hot and measures the current returning through the neutral. If there is more of a difference than 4 to 6 miliamps it will trip. This protection is mainly for personal protection against shock.

Arc fault protection: This breaker/outlet monitors arc faults. Normally it is referred to as a combination arc fault interruptor (CAFCI). Many lay people confuse this with thinking it protects both ground faults (like GFCI) and arc faults; this is not true, combination in this sense means it protects arc faults that are either in series or in parallel. So in this case it protects mainly to prevent a fire from wires arcing.

As far as the use of an extension cord to test the draw on the unit as to how much it pulls or if it will trip the breaker is (ok), and I use OK with caution. Reason, we don't know how much the unit pulls in amps. If you are going to use an extension cord for testing then I would suggest that you use a high quality extension cord with at least 12 gauge conductors, don't use a cheap cord that you would use for a table lamp etc. Also make the you use one that is as short as possible just to reach from the receptacle you will plug it in to (which is the one you will tap from) to the bathroom to reach the unit plug. This keeps any voltage drop to a minimum. Be careful with the extension cord in the bathroom as it is not GFCI protected so don't lay the end on the floor where it may get wet.

This test is only a fair test to say the least. Meaning, let's say you leave it plugged into the extension cord for a week and it does not trip the breaker. You decide you are ok and install the new receptacle. Then several days later it trips the breaker; why, because your wife just ran the vacuum cleaner and it was plugged into a receptacle at the moment that is on the same circuit.

Keep in mind it is best to run a dedicated circuit for the unit. Although this may not be practical or within your budget at this point. So we go with you intentions. It is a matter of what ends up being plugged into that circuit any time in the future that may draw more power than the circuit can handle and trips the breaker. It is the same thing as having a space heater plugged into a receptacle that is on the same circuit as a vacuum cleaner. If the two pull for power at the same time and the power consumption is greater than that of the breaker it will trip.

A possible way to determine what is on that breaker is a simple test that may take about 20 minutes to 30. Shut off all the breakers in the house except for the one that you will be tapping into. Then go around with a lamp or radio and plug it into all the receptacles and see which ones remain live. These are the ones on that circuit. Then test your lights to see which ones still light. Now see what is normally on those live receptacles that you use on a daily basis and see what their draws are. If they are small draws in total then you should be ok. Keep in mind which ones are on that circuit and avoid plugging in any high power consuming devices on those receptacles such as a vacuum cleaner, space heater etc. This should hold you over pretty well then.

 

[afjes_2016]

Only if the recep. is powered by an AFCI protected breaker. Both GFCI and AFCI are sensitive to instant differences, while standard breakers will fail, they are less sensitive. And you are only pulling 5+amps.

In this case it does not matter if the breaker is an AFCI breaker. An AFCI breaker monitors to see if there is an arc fault. If the unit is not faulty and there are no arc faults anywhere else on the circuit the breaker will not trip.

It is not the fact that the GFCI and AFCI breakers are sensitive to instant differences they are sensitive to their applications for two totally different types of protection. Also standard breakers are not less sensitive. Standard breakers do not test for faults that GFCI and AFCI test for. Standard breakers are sensitive for what they monitor, dead shorts and over loads.

It is not the case that a standard breaker will fail it is the case that a standard breaker does not contain the same electronics testing for such faults. A standard breaker will (should) only trip with an over load on the circuit (being higher than the breaker amp) or a dead short.

5 amps has nothing to do with this in this case. Even if the unit pulls only 2 amps and there is a arc fault the AFCI breaker will trip. Even if the unit pulls only 2 amps and the GFCI receptacle trips there is a ground fault. Amps have nothing to do with the protection factors of these two devices except for the circuit total pull itself rated by the breaker either 15 or 20 amps. If you pull more than 15 amps on a 15 amp breaker it will trip, whether it is a AFCI, GFCI or standard breaker (respectively the same for a 20 amp breaker).

 

[Snoonyb]

Thanks for making my point.

 

[afjes_2016]

A GFCI will also trip when there is an instant high demand, so if there is a method of testing using an existing GFCI, you might consider that.

This is not correct. A GFCI will not trip because there is an instant high demand. Whether a breaker or receptacle does not matter. Again, the GFCI receptacle will trip because it sense a ground fault, not because there is an instant high demand. If a GFCI receptacle and something is plugged in that pulls 2 amps and then you plug something else in that pulls 5 amps the receptacle will not trip because there is an instant high demand. It will trip if there is a ground fault. The same goes for a GFCI breaker. If a device is turned on that pulls 2 amps and then at the same time a device is turned on that pulls 5 amps it will not trip unless it sense a ground fault in one of the devices that was just turned on not because of the sudden higher demand; again of course if it does not exceed the rating amp 15 of 20 of the breaker.

 

[Snoonyb]

This is not correct. A GFCI will not trip because there is an instant high demand. Whether a breaker or receptacle does not matter. Again, the GFCI receptacle will trip because it sense a ground fault, not because there is an instant high demand. If a GFCI receptacle and something is plugged in that pulls 2 amps and then you plug something else in that pulls 5 amps the receptacle will not trip because there is an instant high demand. It will trip if there is a ground fault. The same goes for a GFCI breaker. If a device is turned on that pulls 2 amps and then at the same time a device is turned on that pulls 5 amps it will not trip unless it sense a ground fault in one of the devices that was just turned on not because of the sudden higher demand; again of course if it does not exceed the rating amp 15 of 20 of the breaker.

This is my personal experience with 3 non capacitor start compressors and a 15Amp saw, out of the box, on a 20amp GFCI dedicated circuit.

So, you can quote all the theory you want, but I've learned not to power field operated tools from either GFCI or AFCI circuits.

 

[afjes_2016]

This is my personal experience with 3 non capacitor start compressors and a 15Amp saw, out of the box, on a 20amp GFCI dedicated circuit.

So, you can quote all the theory you want, but I've learned not to power field operated tools from either GFCI or AFCI circuits.

Sounds like the circuit was overloaded.

It is not that I am quoting "theory" it is that I am explaining to a "lay person" the OP what the AFCI and GFCI theories are compared to a standard breaker. It is important that lay persons understand the basic concepts of the devices and the purposes they serve for thier better understanding of their individual and unique applications for protection factors. Under normal standard residential application for house hold devices the breakers, receptacles function as theory goes.

 

[KULTULZ]

This is my personal experience with 3 non capacitor start compressors and a 15Amp saw, out of the box, on a 20amp GFCI dedicated circuit.

So, you can quote all the theory you want, but I've learned not to power field operated tools from either GFCI or AFCI circuits.

What the gentleman has stated is fact, not theory. It bears listening to.

Even on a work site, their are GFCI provisions.

You might want to measure the start amps of your CHI-COM compressors and saw.

 

[Snoonyb]

Sounds like the circuit was overloaded.

"20amp GFCI dedicated circuit", with nothing but my equip. being powered from it.

It is not that I am quoting "theory" it is that I am explaining to a "lay person" the OP what the AFCI and GFCI theories are compared to a standard breaker. It is important that lay persons understand the basic concepts of the devices and the purposes they serve for thier better understanding of their individual and unique applications for protection factors. Under normal standard residential application for house hold devices the breakers, receptacles function as theory goes.

I used to "get off into the weeds", as well, but stopped when peoples eyes glazed over.

 

[Snoonyb]

What the gentleman has stated is fact, not theory. It bears listening to.

Even on a work site, their are GFCI provisions.

You might want to measure the start amps of your CHI-COM compressors and saw.

Since you have ***-umed you know my tool purchasing habits so well, which of my total collection of american made tools are "CHI-COM?

Like I said, my personal experience.

 

[KULTULZ]

Since you have ***-umed you know my tool purchasing habits so well, which of my total collection of american made tools are "CHI-COM?

AMERICAN MADE TOOLS...

Which America, Mexico (North America), Central or Southern America?

Or your tools must be fifty years old and the motors need to be rebuilt to lessen initial amperage draw.

 

[Snoonyb]

Can't name the "alleged" Chi-Com?

 

[KULTULZ]

Can't name the "alleged" Chi-Com?

No,

Cleo left the Psychotic Hotline a few years back and ever since my crystal ball has been out of focus.

 

[nealtw]

I have a little experience working tools in the rain, given a choice I would not use a GFCI. When a saw is running and you touch the metal frame you will get a tingle just like you always have and the gfci just laughs at you.
But it will pick up every nick and scratch in the cord on a wet day when it was never enough to pop a breaker.

 

[afjes_2016]

"20amp GFCI dedicated circuit", with nothing but my equip. being powered from it.

This statement really says "nothing" as stated " as is". Sorry. Nothing but your "equipment" being powered? What is the draw of your equipment then on the 20amp circuit; if it does not state on the equipment the watt draw then figure the standard formula; can you? What is the total watt draw of your equipment? Does it exceed the total allowed by the dedicated circuit? OHM's Law, have we applied it to this point. I don't think so. Run two vacuum cleaners on the same 15 or 20amp residential circuit and more than likely it will trip the breaker; GFCI, AFCI, standard does not matter. "Overload"!

I used to "get off into the weeds", as well, but stopped when peoples eyes glazed over.

Ok, now what is this supposed to mean? Is this statement contributing to the forum's purpose of extending help, field experience, knowledge and assistance to DIYselfer's that ask for help from us? I don't think so. Really??

Does not matter who manufacturers the tools; OHMs law will always prevail!!!!!!!

I am starting to see that almost every thread turns out to be a debate or a "challenge of the heads". We are here to assist home owner's. If we have a difference of opinion other than "fact" then let's please state it with respect!!

 

[Snoonyb]

It means that I used to indulge in the type of lengthy explanations of functionality, until I repeatedly saw peoples eyes glaze over, exactly like the statement said. So, instead of just speaking, because I was of the assumption what I said was a display of my impornt, and to hear the sound of my own voice.

I simplified, the KISS principal, and got the point across and got paid and, don't do any warranty recalls, yet.

 

[glouie]

okay.. back on topic..

based on this website.. http://www.do-it-yourself-help.com/measuring_circuit_amps.html the total load on my circuit is:

TV: 2.5 Amps
Ceiling Fan: .8 Amps (not sure if the fan is on the same circuit, will check later)
Roku: .06 Amps (6 watts @ 120V)
Lamp: .83 Amps
Toilet Seat: 5.5 Amps

Total: ~10 amps on a 15 Amp Circuit

I realize the website has estimated power requirements.. I'll check the actual devices.. but for now, I think I should be good to go..