Spicoli43
Well-Known Member
Yeah.
House Building Questions
- Thread starter Krich
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Help Support House Repair Talk:
I have a friend with a lift in his barn. It lifts high enough to walk under the vehicle but you don't have to raise it that high. His assembled in pieces and didn't need any sort of hoist to install.
It sounds like your barn is going to be a pole type construction? When I built my shop I wanted a walk up attic. I did a stick built building on a full foundation. To have a pole building with an attic the plan had to be stamped by a PE. No second floor no stamp required. Doing it on a foundation meant I didn't need an engineer involved, a local lumber company just took my plan and put a package together.
On buried steel gas lines we used a product called Denson Tape to wrap lines. It's a grease saturated cloth type product. It's a mess to work with but the stuff lasts forever. We used it in corrosive areas too and when you remove the wrap to cut a line the pipe looks like brand new. I've also seen pre-wrapped gas pipe. It's steel pipe with a thick yellow plastic tape type wrap. It seems like its usually larger pipe like 3" and up but might be available in smaller sizes.
It sounds like your barn is going to be a pole type construction? When I built my shop I wanted a walk up attic. I did a stick built building on a full foundation. To have a pole building with an attic the plan had to be stamped by a PE. No second floor no stamp required. Doing it on a foundation meant I didn't need an engineer involved, a local lumber company just took my plan and put a package together.
On buried steel gas lines we used a product called Denson Tape to wrap lines. It's a grease saturated cloth type product. It's a mess to work with but the stuff lasts forever. We used it in corrosive areas too and when you remove the wrap to cut a line the pipe looks like brand new. I've also seen pre-wrapped gas pipe. It's steel pipe with a thick yellow plastic tape type wrap. It seems like its usually larger pipe like 3" and up but might be available in smaller sizes.
Spicoli43
Well-Known Member
Do you know the brand?
QUOTE - Are you running water in for a kitchen or at least a drop sink as well as a Bathroom and piping that to existing septic? /QUOTE
The plan is to run toilets only into the septic tank, and all other drains will run into a gray water drain out on the ground away from the house since gray water isn't toxic
I've been working with the guy that's doing the technical drawings on Auto CAD and the plans are very close to being finalized. Once this is completed, I'll go meet with the metal building people and they will give me a price for the shell and slab (does not include the direct work)
On the plans, it looks like in the center of the shop will be about 18 feet tall which should be enough to life a fill size vehicle all the way up.
If I can figure out how to post a PDF doc, I could post the house plans although it’s not quite done yet (it’s pretty close)
I'll be talking with a car life company before long so if there need to be more height, we can increase the pitch of the roof if need be. The guy doing the plans said he had the pitch not very steep, so I should be able to increase that if need be.
One of the car life manufacturers said ion their website that 4 inches of rebar reinforced concrete is all that's needed. I'll probably go with 6 inches at least, and I'll be using a 4 post commercial grade life (like an automotive shop would have) so the weight will be spread out and is is a drive on lift
QUOTE -It sounds like your barn is going to be a pole type construction? /QUOTE
No, it’s going to be all steel framed, bolted to large bolts that are embedded in the slab when they pour the slab similar to a commercial building.
QUOTE -On buried steel gas lines we used a product called Denson Tape /QUOTE
I looked this up and and it’s called Densso. Their US website is - https://www.densona.com/
Thanks for posting that. I’ll put this in my notes concerning gas line installation
The plan is to run toilets only into the septic tank, and all other drains will run into a gray water drain out on the ground away from the house since gray water isn't toxic
I've been working with the guy that's doing the technical drawings on Auto CAD and the plans are very close to being finalized. Once this is completed, I'll go meet with the metal building people and they will give me a price for the shell and slab (does not include the direct work)
On the plans, it looks like in the center of the shop will be about 18 feet tall which should be enough to life a fill size vehicle all the way up.
If I can figure out how to post a PDF doc, I could post the house plans although it’s not quite done yet (it’s pretty close)
I'll be talking with a car life company before long so if there need to be more height, we can increase the pitch of the roof if need be. The guy doing the plans said he had the pitch not very steep, so I should be able to increase that if need be.
One of the car life manufacturers said ion their website that 4 inches of rebar reinforced concrete is all that's needed. I'll probably go with 6 inches at least, and I'll be using a 4 post commercial grade life (like an automotive shop would have) so the weight will be spread out and is is a drive on lift
QUOTE -It sounds like your barn is going to be a pole type construction? /QUOTE
No, it’s going to be all steel framed, bolted to large bolts that are embedded in the slab when they pour the slab similar to a commercial building.
QUOTE -On buried steel gas lines we used a product called Denson Tape /QUOTE
I looked this up and and it’s called Densso. Their US website is - https://www.densona.com/
Thanks for posting that. I’ll put this in my notes concerning gas line installation
Yeah, I'm trying to figure out if I wanted to go with an electric furnace, electric stove top / oven and electric water heater since it seems like the world is going all electric.
On the other hand, I'm in the south where lots of oil and gas is being drilled and produced so it should be a while before my area tries to get rid of gas appliances... like hopefully after I croak!
The rental house we live in now has gas furnace, gas oven, gas water heater... but an electric stove and during the winter our electric bill is typically under $100. But, it costs about $300 to fill the propane tank which lasts about 3 months.
If in the new house I had all electric... I'm wondering if running the heater using an electric furnace would run more than $100 a month. On the other hand, paying for a big propane tank, burying the gas lines is a big added expense I could get out of by going electric.
This house building stuff brings up lots of questions! That's alright, I'm enjoying doing the research and working on the project as I just keep thinking about how it will be nice when we're done and moved in!
So, setting aside the political efforts to get rid of gas... from a practical viewpoint of deciding which is more cost effective, which is more efficient? Gas, or electric?
If the power goes off long term, I'm going to have a fireplace and there's a lot of wood on the property along with deer and small game that can be harvested so I will still be able to cook. (my plan in case SHTF ever happens)
On the other hand, I'm in the south where lots of oil and gas is being drilled and produced so it should be a while before my area tries to get rid of gas appliances... like hopefully after I croak!
The rental house we live in now has gas furnace, gas oven, gas water heater... but an electric stove and during the winter our electric bill is typically under $100. But, it costs about $300 to fill the propane tank which lasts about 3 months.
If in the new house I had all electric... I'm wondering if running the heater using an electric furnace would run more than $100 a month. On the other hand, paying for a big propane tank, burying the gas lines is a big added expense I could get out of by going electric.
This house building stuff brings up lots of questions! That's alright, I'm enjoying doing the research and working on the project as I just keep thinking about how it will be nice when we're done and moved in!
So, setting aside the political efforts to get rid of gas... from a practical viewpoint of deciding which is more cost effective, which is more efficient? Gas, or electric?
If the power goes off long term, I'm going to have a fireplace and there's a lot of wood on the property along with deer and small game that can be harvested so I will still be able to cook. (my plan in case SHTF ever happens)
Last edited:
Spicoli43
Well-Known Member
You can lookup Propane vs Electric or Natural Gas vs Electric, there is calculators online, but you'll need to know the costs like how efficient the propane furnace is, how much the electricity costs etc... I assume a new furnace would be 95% efficient or whatever they claim... Here's an example site...
I ran my situation a few years ago, thinking "I'll use a space heater in the living room when it's -40 outside and not use the home Natural Gas"... Wrong... The calculator said the electric would be 4 times as expensive.
www.pickhvac.com
I ran my situation a few years ago, thinking "I'll use a space heater in the living room when it's -40 outside and not use the home Natural Gas"... Wrong... The calculator said the electric would be 4 times as expensive.
Propane VS Electric Heat Calculator (Running Cost & Savings Comparison) - PICKHVAC
What is Less Expensive to Use…..Propane or Electric Heat? What is the difference in running costs and savings between using propane compared to electric heat? Both energy sources have been rising in cost. So, is propane cheaper than electricity as a fuel to heat your home? Use the Pick HVAC...
www.pickhvac.com
Sounds like gas is more cost effective...My only hesitation is politically motivated efforts to eliminate gas or make it so expensive nobody can afford it.
Even though the state I live in is conservative where this is unlikely to happen, you never know...
I guess I could install gas and everywhere there is a gas appliance, go and and install the wring and plugs for appliances to be replaced with electric appliances.
That way, if I had to switch to electric, the wiring is there for easy plug-n-play installation of electric appliances.
Even though the state I live in is conservative where this is unlikely to happen, you never know...
I guess I could install gas and everywhere there is a gas appliance, go and and install the wring and plugs for appliances to be replaced with electric appliances.
That way, if I had to switch to electric, the wiring is there for easy plug-n-play installation of electric appliances.
Spicoli43
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I would do both, but the elimination of gas will fail no matter what because what happens when there is nothing but electricity and all those Enviro crazies figure out they have to burn coal and gas to make electricity? They will lose their minds and blame the politicians.
Besides a few places that are implementing it, it will turn out to be all talk everywhere else.
"YOU SAID electricity was cleaner, but it is harsher on the environment than just producing gas, and now I'm paying 4 times what I was paying, liar politician"... Multiply that by 20 Million...
Besides a few places that are implementing it, it will turn out to be all talk everywhere else.
"YOU SAID electricity was cleaner, but it is harsher on the environment than just producing gas, and now I'm paying 4 times what I was paying, liar politician"... Multiply that by 20 Million...
It would depend on what you mean by an electric furnace. A high efficiency heat pump would be cheaper to run than an electric resistance ducted furnace. If you wanted to spend the money up-front a ground sourced heat pump where you pump glycol in a closed loop down into the ground and extract the warmth (or coolness in summer) out of the ground rather than trying to extract heat out of 0F air in the winter, or dump heat into 95F air in summer is much more efficient. But there is a pretty steep up-front cost. If I was in a cold climate, I'd seriously consider a ground sourced heat pump if my options only included electric, propane or fuel oil. I'd have to look hard at gas if available. Even here, if I was building where I didn't have gas I'd strongly consider a ground sourced heat pump.
Around here (Raleigh NC area) gas is still cheaper than heating with a heat pump. My winter gas bill is rarely above $200 with two gas furnaces, a gas water heater, gas clothes dryer, gas range, and gas fireplace. I do equal billing on my electric bill and it is a steady $106/month year round. I over pay in cool weather but don't get hit with massive bills for taming our tropical summer weather. Last year I replaced my aging HVAC systems from 1999 with new, more efficient units and added a heat pump for the basement. My electric bills actually dropped $18 a month.
I think they refer to it as geothermal heating and cooling... I thought about that and like it since it's energy efficient, but so far I'm not finding anybody in my area that works with this type of heating and cooling.
I'm going to have AC in my shop but I'm not going to mess with heating the shop since our winters are mild. Down south where I'm at is hot most of the year
Anyway, I'll probably go with gas appliances and install the electric outlets to be able to switch to electric if the need arises someday. This may add to the resale value of the house.
Another question.... I see they have microwave ovens that mount over the stoves which I think is a good idea as it saves counter space.
Do all these all come with a vent so when cooking on your stove you can turn on the air vent and pull air up thru the vent up to a roof vent?
I've always had really good luck with Frigidaire products and I notices they have a package deal for fridge, gas stove / oven, dishwasher, and microwave for around $4300 at lowes - https://www.lowes.com/collections/F...-Suite-in-Smudge-Proof-Stainless-Steel/GR_363
I'm going to have AC in my shop but I'm not going to mess with heating the shop since our winters are mild. Down south where I'm at is hot most of the year
Anyway, I'll probably go with gas appliances and install the electric outlets to be able to switch to electric if the need arises someday. This may add to the resale value of the house.
Another question.... I see they have microwave ovens that mount over the stoves which I think is a good idea as it saves counter space.
Do all these all come with a vent so when cooking on your stove you can turn on the air vent and pull air up thru the vent up to a roof vent?
I've always had really good luck with Frigidaire products and I notices they have a package deal for fridge, gas stove / oven, dishwasher, and microwave for around $4300 at lowes - https://www.lowes.com/collections/F...-Suite-in-Smudge-Proof-Stainless-Steel/GR_363
Flyover
Trying not to screw things up worse
Yes. My experience is when you install an OTR ("over the range") microwave you can configure the vent to either blow back into your kitchen (through a filter), or through a duct you install to go up through your roof.
If you don't do a lot of the type of cooking that fills your kitchen with smoke, and thus don't often use the fan on your hood if that's what you had before, then I'd say skip the hassle and just have the vent blow back into the kitchen, but that's just my opinion, and actually if I was building a home from scratch I'd vent it properly out the roof just because I'm a purist.
"Another question.... I see they have microwave ovens that mount over the stoves which I think is a good idea as it saves counter space."
Here are some items to consider;
These "OTC" appliances, generally, have a max. of 300CFM venting capability, so should the appliance mfg. recommend an 800CFM venting appliance, there is an obvious deficiency.
How and what cookware you use should be considered as well, because the greater the height your OTC is above the cooking appliance surface is, will also affect the venting efficiency.
"Do all these all come with a vent so when cooking on your stove you can turn on the air vent and pull air up thru the vent up to a roof vent?"
The choice is either/or.
In my practice, I vented to the exterior via a min. 7" galv. duct or 3.5" X 10" rectangular galv. given an OTC or higher recommended CFM.
Here are some items to consider;
These "OTC" appliances, generally, have a max. of 300CFM venting capability, so should the appliance mfg. recommend an 800CFM venting appliance, there is an obvious deficiency.
How and what cookware you use should be considered as well, because the greater the height your OTC is above the cooking appliance surface is, will also affect the venting efficiency.
"Do all these all come with a vent so when cooking on your stove you can turn on the air vent and pull air up thru the vent up to a roof vent?"
The choice is either/or.
In my practice, I vented to the exterior via a min. 7" galv. duct or 3.5" X 10" rectangular galv. given an OTC or higher recommended CFM.
OK, now I see why some of the microwave descriptions say they come with a charcoal grill... so it sucks up air and passes it thru the filter back in to your kitchen and not to a vent up thru the roof.
I think I'd rather have a vent thru the roof with a stronger fan so hopefully there is a way to have the microwave above the stove and still have an exhaust fan set that flows behind the microwave. Maybe someone makes a kit for doing this.
Or, I guess I could plan on placing the microwave within the cabinets elsewhere and have a ready vent over the stove which may be the better way to go so we can have good strong exhaust over the stove.
I think I'd rather have a vent thru the roof with a stronger fan so hopefully there is a way to have the microwave above the stove and still have an exhaust fan set that flows behind the microwave. Maybe someone makes a kit for doing this.
Or, I guess I could plan on placing the microwave within the cabinets elsewhere and have a ready vent over the stove which may be the better way to go so we can have good strong exhaust over the stove.
Eddie_T
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I wasn't considering propane as I'm all electric but I ran the calculator and propane in my area is essentially equal to electric when one includes furnace maintenance cost. Natural gas is nearby but not in my rural area.You can lookup Propane vs Electric or Natural Gas vs Electric, there is calculators online, but you'll need to know the costs like how efficient the propane furnace is, how much the electricity costs etc... I assume a new furnace would be 95% efficient or whatever they claim... Here's an example site...
I ran my situation a few years ago, thinking "I'll use a space heater in the living room when it's -40 outside and not use the home Natural Gas"... Wrong... The calculator said the electric would be 4 times as expensive.
Propane VS Electric Heat Calculator (Running Cost & Savings Comparison) - PICKHVAC
What is Less Expensive to Use…..Propane or Electric Heat? What is the difference in running costs and savings between using propane compared to electric heat? Both energy sources have been rising in cost. So, is propane cheaper than electricity as a fuel to heat your home? Use the Pick HVAC...
BvilleBound
Well-Known Member
Shifting to electricity for heat and the stove would reduce your costs, but the details matter:
Heat pump: An electric air-source heat pump is the most efficient and cost-effective way to heat and cool a home, if your area has less than 7,300 'Heating Degree Days' - roughly the climate in southern Minnesota. Note that heat pumps provide heat in the winter and AC in the summer, which may also be a benefit in your area. Note: Simple resistance based electric heaters are significantly more costly than natural gas. See this detailed study: https://www.aceee.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/b2205.pdf To find the exact Heating Degree Days for your location, go to: ENERGY STAR Portfolio ManagerDegree Days Calculator
Here is a graph from that study comparing air-source heat pumps to a natural gas furnace. Note that the lines meet at 7,300 Heaing Degree Days. The cost data predates the sharp increase in natural gas costs following Putin's attack on Ukraine, and an increase in electricity costs in many regions of the USA, where a higher percentage of electric power stations use natural gas:
As noted above, an air-source heat pump can also cool your home in the summer, for a further reduction in costs. If you live in the southern USA, this would be another advantage.
Electric stove: Many stoves today are "dual fuel", with natural gas burners on top, and an electric oven below. Older / standard 100% electric stoves use resistance heaters on top - typically a coil shape - which are very inefficient. The best solution is an 'inductive' stove top, which are common in Europe. Electric waves directly heat the bottom of inductive pots and pans. This also gives the cook precise control over temperatures - even better than a natural gas burner! My wife is an excellent cook and our home in France had an inductive cooktop; she was dubious. "This can't possibly be better than a gas cooktop!" Now she is a convert. You do need matching inductive cookware, which is easy to find in the USA. The pots and pans look identical to standard cookware for a natural gas stove. Do a search for "inductive cookware" on Amazon.
BvilleBound
Well-Known Member
Yes, you can vent many over-stove exhaust fans through the back of the fan and run a rectangular duct inside the wall between the studs - behind a microwave - then transition to a standard round duct to run the duct out through the roof. This is far superior to exhaust fans that simply blow the air and smoke back into your kitchen!
Spicoli43
Well-Known Member
Yeah, if I had propane, I would save $49 a year over electric based on the calculator. Natural gas is far cheaper, but I can't find a specific calculator in which I can choose how many hours I use it. The pre filled one with all fuel types has propane as the most expensive by 3 whole dollars over electric baseboard, followed by electric heat pump $1000 less than that, and natural gas $500 or something below that.
