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Improper plumbing & trying to remodel bathroom/laundry

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zannej

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The 2 inches from the wall is for frost protection. If you brig the plumbing thru the cabinet from the floor you save the two inches.
Hmm.. The diagrams I saw showed it being 4" from the side wall, not the back wall. I should have been more specific. The side wall is an internal wall. It doesn't usually freeze here and I was planning to wrap the pipes in something to insulate them as well as put insulation in the wall behind.

Are you saying I would need to have the plumbing come up from the floor inside the cabinet (in front of the exterior wall)? The vanity has a drawer so that would mean I'd have to bump the vanity forward to avoid having to cut the drawer I mean, I could do that and then have a little shelf behind the vanity so I could put stuff on it.

Let me see if I can find that diagram again that talked about the 4"...
From http://starcraftcustombuilders.com/bath.design.rules.htm#.VGdp1_l4qS7

Building Code Requirement:
The minimum distance from the centerline of the lavatory to a wall is 15". (IPC 405.3.1)
The minimum distance between a wall and the edge of a free standing or wall-hung lavatory is 4". (IRC R 307.2)


But when I scoured my state's plumbing code, I didn't find the bit about free standing or wall-hung lavatories and nothing about the 4".

Edit: I realize that the 4" is building code and not plumbing code-- but you'd think that something involving fixture placements from building code would be referenced in the plumbing code. My state's plumbing code specifically said "lavatory" and cited the 15" from center. Does that mean it doesn't use the building code?
 
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nealtw

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Sorry I gt that wrong. I would go with a vanity that went right to the corner, a 24" box set 3" from the wall with a filler to match the box and the counter top covers to the corner.
Then you have 15" min 27" top and a space for the plumbing too.
 

slownsteady

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There is some advantage to running the pipes up the inside wall, if you live in an area prone to cold weather. Not much harder to plumb from the side as it is to plumb from the back. But the back of the vanity is usually easier to get through.
 

zannej

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Thanks guys. I already have the vanity (the one I showed in pics awhile back)

I would essentially end up with something like this (except the wall is straight so the toilet would be next to the shower instead of bumped back with wall on the side)

Note how the sink overhangs the vanity. The one I have is completely open at the back (except for the part with the drawer). So I could bump it forward enough to have the water supply lines inside the house in front of the wall and then put up some sort of trim on the sides to cover the gap between the wall and the vanity. I'd have a little shelf behind at the same level as the ridge at the back of the sink to have a little shelf (because having stuff fall behind would not be cool). I'm also thinking of building up a little box on the wall to hold the medicine cabinet (which is designed to fit between the studs) so I can have more room for insulation in the wall).
The good news is, it does not get below freezing here very often. The coldest it gets is in the 20s.

I'm trying to work out the plumbing layout now. I made a sloppy mockup that my brother joked looked like a weather chart with all of the colors. I know it needs changes-- I'll probably need combo tee wyes or have to add bends. I will just have to dry fit things to figure out angles and such.

I still want to have the vents inside the exterior wall.


That layout was based somewhat on this pic:


I have another one where the lines run separately to the main soil pipe instead of merging.

I saw this diagram for a toilet hookup and am wondering if it is ok


Should this last one have a 3" tee before the bend and then have fittings to make it go up at an angle to reach inside the wall and then go straight up?
 
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nealtw

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I wouldn't use that vanity, it is cute but small, works good in narrow spots but you do have room for a square box and a nice sink.
Most lumber yards and plumbing supply stores have someone that can help draw up a scetch of the layout of the pipes.
 

zannej

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Frodo, thank you. I didn't think that one was legal, so I wanted to ask about it.

Is it not legal because of the wye? I read somewhere that a wye like that can restrict the airflow when used like that. I was thinking a sanitee would be better. I'm trying to picture how that would work... Would I have the closet bend like in the first picture but have it go back toward the wall into the 3" end of the inlet and then have the lavatory waste pipe come in from the right side? (I'll try to do a mockup later).

Another picture I saw was this one:


But instead of traveling to the left, I would have it travel to the right and merge with the lavatory drain and then have the merged soil pipe travel to the main soil pipe.

Does it matter which fixture is upstream/downstream if they each have their own vents? I know that some fixtures can siphon water from the traps of others bc of the flow, but is it better to have the sink line come in above the toilet line or below? Or can they pretty much be on the same plane? (preferably without living snakes, because we all know how Samuel L. Jackson feels about that).
I've been trying to find more diagrams for toilet hookups, but most of them seem to be for multi-story homes, or have layouts that don't match up.
This was one I found



Neal, I appreciate the advice, but we're pretty much stuck with that vanity. I plan to make use of the walls and add other storage. We want the walking path to be clear.

I wish I could trust the people at the local hardware stores to come up with sketches, but the owner at one gives bad advice and tells people to do things that violate code. The other hardware store is being run by the son of the former owner. His father was a licensed contractor, but he sadly passed away a couple of years back. I've talked to him, and I know more about plumbing than he does. He's a nice guy, but he is still trying to learn the trade so he can be better at running the business. I don't trust the big box stores at all because the competency/knowledge levels of the employees is inconsistent.

I got bored while it was raining (internet was out) and did a couple more sketches.
This one is completely not to scale and I suck with angles, proportion, and perspective... But its a general idea of how I imagine it to look. Just hope there's room for all of it (probably won't be, but I'll do some measuring when I can actually get down the hallway-- my brother just opened his door and shoved laundry and trash into the hallway so I can't get through).

(I know the towel ring sucks, but I forgot it at first and just slapped together a craptastic one)

Here is the overall layout (I know I didn't have the vanity bumped forward for either drawing bc I was too lazy to draw it in)


(I fudged on the size of the toiletpaper and towel bar/ring because I didn't feel like measuring to do the size to scale)
 

nealtw

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I went and had a look at your measurements, it looks like you have something like 5x9 then I went and looked at mine.
The rough in was set in concrete so I just went with it for the tub and toilet just like you have. 15" from center of toilet to tub so I set the vanity at the same spacing.
For the vanity I had a 32" box left over from the kitchen so it is finished out at the counter at 24" from the wall. I put a spacer on the side to make it to the side wall but set it back some and the counter angles over to the side wall to allow for door opening. I have all that in 8'6" and there is no feeling of small bathroom, there is plenty of room.
 

nealtw

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The toilet flange may have to move a little depending on floor joists, angle flanges are availibe to get things closer.
 

zannej

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Thanks, Neal. I think its closer to 8'x5' I think.. Its like 94.5" x 61".
The lavatory is 26" wide and I think 17" deep.

I want to have the toilet as far as I can get it from the tub but still have a decent distance from the vanity. I'm glad you mentioned the joists. I'll have to check the positions to make sure it lines up without interference. It would be nice if the wall studs were over the joists so it would be easier to find them-- but I doubt that is the case. I'll have to see if I can figure out where they are without climbing under the house.

Thank you for mentioning the joists. I had completely forgotten about that.

The good news is, I'm pretty sure the standpipe is far enough away, the bad news is, I will have to figure out how to vent it. Might have to go through the attic. I need to get a ladder tall enough. I underestimated the height and got a ladder that was too short.
 

nealtw

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Ya, somehow I added 3 and 5 and got 9:rofl:
The studs should be above the joists but sometime it just dosn't work out that way and some framers don't even try.
If you have venting now, any chance you can just use that, I don't know the rules on distance.
 

zannej

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Ya, somehow I added 3 and 5 and got 9:rofl:
The studs should be above the joists but sometime it just dosn't work out that way and some framers don't even try.
If you have venting now, any chance you can just use that, I don't know the rules on distance.
LOL. Don't worry. Math is not my best subject. I went to a really awful public school for awhile that had the worst math teachers.

There is currently only one vent (the one attached to the toilet). None of the other fixtures are vented (well, the washer was set up to vent through the lavatory but that is just plain stupid).

To use that vent I would have to route the vent pipe for the toilet (after the lavatory drain merged with it) through the attic. I think its at least a 6' run so it would have to go up about 1 1/2". It would take much less pipe if I just put it out through the exterior wall and routed it around the soffit and up above the roof (which is how the auxiliary vents are done on this house).
 

frodo

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try this drawing, this is about the simplest way i know to plumb a bathroom..



its a little more work,, but if you have a joist in the way, cut the joist completely out. and head it off

then drill thru the header, to install the plumbing

a offset closet collar is a F___up fixer, and you get what you get when you go that route

they are legal, they have there place. as a last resort

scan0004.jpg

scan0003.jpg
 
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nealtw

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try this drawing, this is about the simplest way i know to plumb a bathroom..



its a little more work,, but if you have a joist in the way, cut the joist completely out. and head it off

then drill thru the header, to install the plumbing

a offset closet collar is a F___up fixer, and you get what you get when you go that route

they are legal, they have there place. as a last resort
Doubling the joists and blocks is most important when cutting a joist in the bathroom, Thewn itr can be just as easy to remove that joist and run a new one on each side of the flange.

FH00JAU_JOIWOR_06.JPG
 

frodo

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nice drawing!

Thats zackly what i was mumbling bout!!
 

frodo

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Frodo, thank you. I didn't think that one was legal, so I wanted to ask about it.

Is it not legal because of the wye? I read somewhere that a wye like that can restrict the airflow when used like that. I was thinking a sanitee would be better. I'm trying to picture how that would work... Would I have the closet bend like in the first picture but have it go back toward the wall into the 3" end of the inlet and then have the lavatory waste pipe come in from the right side? (I'll try to do a mockup later).

Another picture I saw was this one:


But instead of traveling to the left, I would have it travel to the right and merge with the lavatory drain and then have the merged soil pipe travel to the main soil pipe.

Does it matter which fixture is upstream/downstream if they each have their own vents? I know that some fixtures can siphon water from the traps of others bc of the flow, but is it better to have the sink line come in above the toilet line or below? Or can they pretty much be on the same plane? (preferably without living snakes, because we all know how Samuel L. Jackson feels about that).
I've been trying to find more diagrams for toilet hookups, but most of them seem to be for multi-story homes, or have layouts that don't match up.
This was one I found



Neal, I appreciate the advice, but we're pretty much stuck with that vanity. I plan to make use of the walls and add other storage. We want the walking path to be clear.

I wish I could trust the people at the local hardware stores to come up with sketches, but the owner at one gives bad advice and tells people to do things that violate code. The other hardware store is being run by the son of the former owner. His father was a licensed contractor, but he sadly passed away a couple of years back. I've talked to him, and I know more about plumbing than he does. He's a nice guy, but he is still trying to learn the trade so he can be better at running the business. I don't trust the big box stores at all because the competency/knowledge levels of the employees is inconsistent.

I got bored while it was raining (internet was out) and did a couple more sketches.
This one is completely not to scale and I suck with angles, proportion, and perspective... But its a general idea of how I imagine it to look. Just hope there's room for all of it (probably won't be, but I'll do some measuring when I can actually get down the hallway-- my brother just opened his door and shoved laundry and trash into the hallway so I can't get through).

(I know the towel ring sucks, but I forgot it at first and just slapped together a craptastic one)

Here is the overall layout (I know I didn't have the vanity bumped forward for either drawing bc I was too lazy to draw it in)


(I fudged on the size of the toiletpaper and towel bar/ring because I didn't feel like measuring to do the size to scale)


new drawing

scan0005.jpg
 

zannej

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Thank you very much guys. I'll see if I can locate the studs in the walls and maybe take some painter's tape to stretch out on the walls and mark off key points. That way I'll be able to guesstimate where the joists might be. The good news is, because the house has very thin panels that are nailed in to studs, all I have to do is look for the nails. On one of the walls, the panels don't even go all the way to the top so its just open and I an see the studs (and the main vent).

I have to keep in mind when adjusting the plumbing that I have to also be mindful of the ducting for the AC. I know there is a duct running somewhere above the current bathroom area because there is a vent/light/heat unit. Ok, I don't know but I suspect. I also suspect there is a broken or detached vent somewhere because when the heat is on, I can feel it coming down from the ceiling in one kitchen corner where there is not a vent.

I wish I could find one of those Dickies jumpsuits for women. Only ones I've found are for men and they fit so poorly that I can't lift my arms in them. LOL.

Sorry for rambling. I have to take my little dog to the vet now.
 

frodo

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list of pvc fittings for the rough in

1 3x2 combination
1 3x2 wye
1 3" san tee with 2" left hand side outlet
1 3" 90
1 4x3 toilet 90
1 2' p-trap
1 2x 1 1/2 bushing for ptrap
1 2" 45
2 2" 90
1 3x2 bushing for the 3" tee


for the above floor
1 2" tee
1 2" ptrap
1 oatey washer box
2 2" co tee
1 2x 1 1/2 tee
1 2x 1 1/2x 1 1/2 tee
1 1 1/2 90


for the vents

tie, the washing machine vent and sink vent into the vent for the toilet, offset toilet vent to tie into existing vent
 
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