Weird draining problem...

[Lancer525]

Okay, If I forget any pertinent detail, I apologize. Please let me know.

I have a house built in 1952. It has a 4"PVC cleanout leading to the main city sewer line, just outside the bathroom wall. It's a 1-bath home.

Here's the problem: The kitchen sink (farthest away from the cleanout) drains really slowly. As in 15-20 minutes for half a sink's worth of water. No dishwasher hookup or disposal or anything strange. The bathroom sink also drains slowly, but not as slowly, more like 3 to 5 minutes for a sink full of water. The shower/tub drains just as slowly as the kitchen sink, and the tub is closest to the cleanout. Here's the weird part. The commode (in between the bath sink and the tub in terms of distance from the cleanout) flushes perfectly fine. No problems there at all.

I pretty much thought it was a clog somewhere in the leading line to the city sewer main, so today I rented a rotary wire-spring/cable electric snake from Orange Big Box, with the intention of cleaning out the line. Opened the plug on the end of the cleanout, and there was no water in it. So I had spouse run water in the tub. Drained slowly, but I could see flow in the pipe leading out to the city main. Same with the sink. I had her flush the commode, and there was a big rush of water, and then back to the light flow from the tub and kitchen sink. That tells me the clog isn't in the main, that it's inside the house somewhere.

I am pretty much stumped about where the !#$@#%&?! clog is, given that the commode flushes normally, but all other sinks/tub drain slowly, in varying degrees. We've poured several containers of various "drain cleaners" in all the sinks/tub, and all with minimal effect. I have absolutely no idea what could be causing this, and have less than no idea what to do about trying to make repair.

Any ideas?

 

[tomtheelder2020]

First: be grateful that your toilet is the one thing that works.

Second: Have you checked traps on the other fixtures to see if each has its own clog?

 

[oldognewtrick]

I recently had a bathroom sink that drained slow, I tried running a small snake into the drain at the wall after taking off the P trap, it wouldn't make the turn at the vent stack. So, I got up on the roof and ran a snake down the vent stack. Problem solved. Check your traps, if they're clear you may have to attack it from the top of the vent stack. If you're not comfortable getting on the roof, call a plumber. An ambulance costs a whole lot more than asking for help sometimes.

 

[Lancer525]

First: be grateful that your toilet is the one thing that works.

Second: Have you checked traps on the other fixtures to see if each has its own clog?

Am very grateful the commode is working properly.

Have no idea how to get to the trap for the tub, but I did pull the stopper, and it looked clean. Ran one of those plastic nibbed things down it, and came up with nothing. Took apart the trap for the bath sink, and nothing. Same with the kitchen sink. This is something I should have mentioned, sorry about that! And it is also the reason I'm stymied as to where the draining issue is.

 

[Lancer525]

I recently had a bathroom sink that drained slow, I tried running a small snake into the drain at the wall after taking off the P trap, it wouldn't make the turn at the vent stack. So, I got up on the roof and ran a snake down the vent stack. Problem solved. Check your traps, if they're clear you may have to attack it from the top of the vent stack. If you're not comfortable getting on the roof, call a plumber. An ambulance costs a whole lot more than asking for help sometimes.

I don't have any problem getting up on the roof, at least in terms of the height or anything, it is that I don't have a ladder long enough to do it safely.

 

[bud16415]

Around here and i don't think central Georgia it would be an issue, but we get our vent pipes froze over with ice or snow sometimes and the lack of air behind water causes drains to slow down.

You could also have a blockage down line past the traps in the smaller lines. About a week ago the kitchen sink slowed way down and I tried the normal tricks and it wouldn't speed up. I stuffed a wash rag in the one drain hole and held it down with a scrub brush handle and filled the other sink with water and then went after it with a plunger. after about 4 tries swoosh it took right off. I then ran full hot down it for about 5 minutes and it has been working great. Knocking on wood.

 

[Lancer525]

Around here and i don't think central Georgia it would be an issue, but we get our vent pipes froze over with ice or snow sometimes and the lack of air behind water causes drains to slow down.

You could also have a blockage down line past the traps in the smaller lines. About a week ago the kitchen sink slowed way down and I tried the normal tricks and it wouldn't speed up. I stuffed a wash rag in the one drain hole and held it down with a scrub brush handle and filled the other sink with water and then went after it with a plunger. after about 4 tries swoosh it took right off. I then ran full hot down it for about 5 minutes and it has been working great. Knocking on wood.

We have had some cold weather lately, although I'd bet the nice folks in New England and the Mid-Atlantic states would laugh at us for claiming to be cold at 25 degrees F on what they would see as a nice Spring day... I don't think that's it. We've had this problem intermittently since November. I say intermittently, since it would drain as slow as frozen molasses one day, and the next day it would just drain slowly. I tried one more time one of the commercial drain cleaners about 10:00am this morning. Followed manufacturer's directions and poured in near-boiling water after the treatment. I had a sink right at half-full, about four inches of water, and at 2:30pm, the sink (kitchen) still has two inches of water in it. This stuff has a label on it that says "It works, we guarantee it, or it's free!" so I guess I'm getting my money back for it. Commode is still flushing normally, tub/shower is draining normally, and bathroom sink is still a touch slow, but empties in less than a minute.

I have tried the "block up one side and plunge the other" in the kitchen a couple of times since the end of last year, and got up a very little bit of gunky stuff, but the sink draining is still as slow as it always was. I'm loath to start taking pipes apart under the sink so as to be able to push a snake in there, because it's hell the ruggedest mile to get them all back together without myriad leaks. Maybe I'm just stupid, and don't know how to put them back together properly. As long as it's not leaking, I can wait to try something else another day.

In the interim, could I ask you to explain exactly what I should expect when trying to run a snake down the vent stack? That one we rented from the Big Box store weighed a good 130+ pounds, and there's no way I could carry something like that up a ladder. So I am probably going to have to get a smaller one. I just can't visualize how I'm even going to do that.

 

[oldognewtrick]

I've rented a pressure washer snake from the tool rental store. It's basically a pressure washer with a small tip, it has about a hundred feet of hose. You put the nozzel in the pipe, turn the unit on and it will feed itself forward. There's directions holes the breakup sludge and backwashes debris. It's an electric pump and it's worked well. I've used it to unclog underground drainage around houses with there's pvc pipe.

 

[Lancer525]

I've rented a pressure washer snake from the tool rental store. It's basically a pressure washer with a small tip, it has about a hundred feet of hose. You put the nozzel in the pipe, turn the unit on and it will feed itself forward. There's directions holes the breakup sludge and backwashes debris. It's an electric pump and it's worked well. I've used it to unclog underground drainage around houses with there's pvc pipe.

Unfortunately, none of the Tool Rental places around here have any such thing. All they have are the common, "spring cable" type, with either a larger spring or a cutting tool on the end of it. And they're heavy. I've got no idea how I'd get one up a ladder to run down the vent stack.

 

[tmiskimen]

If you already have a pressure washer. You can buy a "Clog Hog" drain snake for it. They really work well and are worth the investment. Save one Roto Rooter call and you've paid for it. Do a search for "Clog Hog".

 

[oldognewtrick]

Home Depot has several you can rent.

 

[Fireguy5674]

Are you on a slab, crawl space or a basement? The cleanout you referred to is outside the bathroom in the yard? Trying to get a feel for the layout of the plumbing. You may have to take the plumbing under the sink loose and get into the line there where it goes into the wall to get access to that line. If possible, just take the trap off and try going in there before taking everything else loose. If you can't turn the corner, then you will have to get closer to the wall to get through what should be a tee. The bigger the cutter you can get in there the better. I have had plugs that were soft, and the snake would go through the plug and back but never dislodge it. I have never used a "Clog Hog" but have used bigger versions. They work great if you can get them in the pipe. Since your problem seems to be intermittent and your plumbing is old you may well have an accumulation of sludge.

 

[BuzzLOL]

Home Depot has several you can rent.

View attachment 27516

Rental prices are ridiculously high these days... rent for 24 hours and you could have bought a new one for less... you can rent a $50K truck for much less!

 

[Eddie_T]

Since the soil pipe isn't clogged do you know the configuration of the drain pipes? How many vents penetrate the roof?

 

[Lancer525]

Home Depot has several you can rent.

View attachment 27516

That's exactly the one I rented. Not a "pressure washer" type, but with the coiled cable.

 

[Lancer525]

If you already have a pressure washer. You can buy a "Clog Hog" drain snake for it. They really work well and are worth the investment. Save one Roto Rooter call and you've paid for it. Do a search for "Clog Hog".

Don't have a pressure washer, but I have toyed with the idea of getting or renting one. May have to give it more serious consideration.

 

[Lancer525]

Are you on a slab, crawl space or a basement? The cleanout you referred to is outside the bathroom in the yard? Trying to get a feel for the layout of the plumbing. You may have to take the plumbing under the sink loose and get into the line there where it goes into the wall to get access to that line. If possible, just take the trap off and try going in there before taking everything else loose. If you can't turn the corner, then you will have to get closer to the wall to get through what should be a tee. The bigger the cutter you can get in there the better. I have had plugs that were soft, and the snake would go through the plug and back but never dislodge it. I have never used a "Clog Hog" but have used bigger versions. They work great if you can get them in the pipe. Since your problem seems to be intermittent and your plumbing is old you may well have an accumulation of sludge.

Crawl space, of about 16" to 18"... More than a little claustrophobic.

Yes, the cleanout is outside the house, about 3 feet from the outside wall. Right outside the bathroom.

I've looked under the sink, and it seems to me to be a hodge-podge of previous repairs. One of which I had to make myself the first weekend we were in the house. I tried the two-plunger thing, to try to forcibly push through the water. One plunger in each bowl in the kitchen sink. All that managed to accomplish was to put a hole in the chrome-plated brass fitting that is immediately under the drain, and before the trap. So I went to the Big Box Store and bought a new one. It is PVC/plastic. It connects to the trap, which is also two plastic curved parts, and the one on the bottom connects to a chrome-plated brass tube/pipe that goes into what looks like a 4" cast-iron black pipe. (I hope I'm describing this in enough detail for you to get the picture) That black pipe goes down through the floor, and up to what looks like a galvanized vent pipe. Although, to be honest, it actually looks like it doesn't really go anywhere, since directly above it, and above the sink is the window in the room. So I don't really see how that could be going up to a vent.

My biggest fear is taking it all apart, only to discover that I can't fix what the problem is, either because it's too far out of reach, or it's a problem I don't understand, and then not being able to get any of it to go back together again without major leakage, and thus be without use of the plumbing in the kitchen for who knows how long. That happened to me with the electrical wiring in the utility room out in the carport. There was a cracked ceramic light fixture there, the kind where you screw in a bulb and it has a pull chain? Anyway, I shut off the power, took the broken fixture off, and discovered about six sets of wires interconnected in the metal box behind the light fixture. I tried as many possible combinations as I could to try to get them to light up a bulb, but never could get anything to work. I lost the outdoor GFCI outlet on the outside of the utility room, the floodlight for the backyard, and the outside patio light on a pole too. I put wire nuts on all the wires, and just left it. At least the outlet where the freezer is plugged in still works. So I don't want to get in over my head, and be without a working faucet.

Something you said struck a note with me. You've had "soft plugs" and with old pipes, I might have an "accumulation of sludge". It strikes me that it's possible that this "plug" I have swells up when it gets wet, and blocks the drain, but when it dries out, it lets enough water through so it can drain slowly. By the way, I did all this Sunday morning, and I still have about an inch of water in both sinks. It hasn't drained out any more. This house had a renter, according to my agent, from about 2010 to 2018. It was vacant from 2018 until we bought it last October. The seller "did some renovations" before we bought it. The only thing I could find that he did was build a wall to block off the kitchen from the dining room, take out a rump wall that divided the living room from the entry area, and replace a few outlets and light fixtures. I suspect the electrical work was done without an inspection, because I have some other issues there I won't go into on this plumbing forum.

Don't know if I mentioned it, but we are going to redo some of the kitchen in the early summer, and I just may wait until we get that cabinet out, and before the new corner sink base goes in (it's a regular sink base now) have open space to work on the plumbing. It'll give me some time to save up a couple of thousand bucks to cover any major plumbing problem. I suspect that's where this is going to go.

To cap off everything, I am having to build a shed in the back yard, so I will have some place to store all my yard tools and gardening stuff. My county requires a permit for this (that's another thread entirely) so I'm trying to get other things done before I can tackle that one.

I was really hoping this would be a more simple fix than it's turning out to be, which is why I came here in the first place. I should have known better. Ah, the joys of homeownership!

 

[Fireguy5674]

Can you post a picture of the plumbing under the sink? The vent pipe goes up in the wall space then probably turns 90 degrees to one side of the window and then 90 degrees again to get to the attic. I am surprised there is a 4" pipe under the sink. Not saying you are wrong, but from the description of the system I read originally the kitchen is some distance from the rest of the fixtures. I would expect to see a 2' drain opening under the sink. But who knows what somebody else thought 50 years ago? I realize you are hesitant to start in under the sink. It sounds to me like that is going to be the place to go next. Doesn't sound like you have any use of the sink now because it is not draining. Having said that, if you do not feel confident you can do what is necessary it may be time to call the plumber. Is there a washing machine using the drain system in the house?

 

[Lancer525]

Can you post a picture of the plumbing under the sink? The vent pipe goes up in the wall space then probably turns 90 degrees to one side of the window and then 90 degrees again to get to the attic. I am surprised there is a 4" pipe under the sink. Not saying you are wrong, but from the description of the system I read originally the kitchen is some distance from the rest of the fixtures. I would expect to see a 2' drain opening under the sink. But who knows what somebody else thought 50 years ago? I realize you are hesitant to start in under the sink. It sounds to me like that is going to be the place to go next. Doesn't sound like you have any use of the sink now because it is not draining. Having said that, if you do not feel confident you can do what is necessary it may be time to call the plumber. Is there a washing machine using the drain system in the house?

At work ATM, but if I can remember to do it, I will when I get home. I should have thought of that already.

It may well be that double 90-degree turn, I only knelt down and looked under, didn't get down on the floor to look up and back.

It could be as you say (and probably is) but because I'm not particularly calibrated to ID pipe sizes, I always take a piece with me to the store, because I can't tell at a glance between say, a 1-1/4" or a 1-1/2" fitting. It could be 3" or 5" or anywhere in that ballpark. It's a thick, black, metal pipe. I'll measure it just to see, and to determine where that vent goes, because now you've piqued my curiosity. Can't fix the !@#$ thing if I can't quantify and describe it correctly!

I haven't physically measured, but the in the bathroom, the shower/tub drain is about 6' from the cleanout, the toilet is a couple more feet away, and the sink is a couple more feet from that. Broadly speaking, that is. If I had to guess, I'd say the kitchen sink is about 25-30 feet or so away from the cleanout. There are three vent pipes. One over the bath, one over the kitchen sink, and one over the laundry area. There is, in fact, a washing machine, but it must be on a different drain line, because it drains perfectly fine. In fact, that is one of the reasons why it's so bloody frustrating.

Oh, we have some use of it, because I have the bottom half of a 5 gallon bucket sitting in the sink, so if we use the sink, the water goes in it, to be dumped out behind the garden. It's going to be completely redone in 4 to 6 months, because I'm doing new countertops and a couple of new cabinets. There's a 60" base against one wall in the corner, and I'm going to put in a corner sink base with drawer bases on either side of it. That will necessitate new sink, and possibly new plumbing. That "Harvest Gold" formica with matching enameled sink from the early 70s is not my thing. Not having full use of the sink is inconvenient, but we've been in the house since September, so we're sort of used to it.

I agree. I am most definitely going to have to have a plumber in. Probably at the time of new cabinet base installation.

 

[Eddie_T]

Typically gray water drains collectively feed into the soil pipe at one or more points. If that is the case the clog would be in the gray water drain since the toilet flushes OK. I think washers tend to not be combined with sinks for draining. If that schematic could be drawn it might be self explanatory as to where the problem lies.