Weird draining problem...

[Lancer525]

Typically gray water drains collectively feed into the soil pipe at one or more points. If that is the case the clog would be in the gray water drain since the toilet flushes OK. I think washers tend to not be combined with sinks for draining. If that schematic could be drawn it might be self explanatory as to where the problem lies.

See, this is where my knowledge base falls short. I just presumed that all the drain pipes fed directly into one main drain line that led out to the sewer main in the street. I don't even know the proper terminology for all the parts of the system!

I have absolutely no idea how to draw a schematic of the system. I can only say what the pipes look like and what they're attached to.

I don't even know if I can fit through that tiny little door into the crawl space!

 

[Eddie_T]

It's just a line drawing showing all the drains and vents relative to each other and connections to the soil pipe with the cleanout. Just a rough line sketch of what you see under there if you can get there. It would help to see if the sinks that don't drain end up being on the same line before they connect with the main soil pipe. Where they are relative to each other on the floor does not necessarily indicate how they relate in connecting to the soil pipe.

 

[Fireguy5674]

In most houses gray water and black water are not differentiated. But Eddie is right when he says a layout of the house might give a clue as to how the pipes are run. For instance, if the washer is more toward the front of the house it may use a different pipe run to get to the main sewer line. It is also possible that you have multiple clogs and that is why nothing seems to make sense. If you have a 2" cast iron pipe hub coming up under the kitchen sink it could appear to be over 3" on the outside. Pipe is always measured on the inside diameter and the hubs on cast pipe are much larger than the rest of the pipe. Having three vent pipes through the roof over the areas mentioned makes me think the pluming runs for bath and laundry are separate. IMO you have a clog in your kitchen sink line which may or may not be related to a clog in the line for the bath and lavatory drains. I would "GUESS" the line coming from your kitchen sink is 2" at best and may have the bath and lavatory drains plumbed into that line before arrival at the main sewer line which is more than likely 4". And obviously I am guessing blindly. See if you can get a picture under the kitchen sink. Oh yeah, if you are going to work under that sink just figure you have to literally get at least your head and shoulders inside the cabinet to do much.

I just noticed I misread something in your earlier post. I had it in my head that you were on a slab. It changes nothing in my "Guess" of how the system is run but it does give you more options for repair if required. Where is your crawl space opening in relation to the plumbing fixtures?

 

[Eddie_T]

Fireguy is right gray water and black water are not differentiated. Not being a plumber I often call things by misleading terms. In my mind gray water flows in the 1½ and 2" pipes to the 4"soil pipe and black water goes directly into the 4" soil pipe. Sorry if I added any confusion.

 

[Lancer525]

Sorry about the delay in photos. Ate something that disagreed with me yesterday.

I'm rather surprised that my impression of what was under the sink is w asas skewed from reality as it is. I suppose the size of the coupling in the black drain pipe is what stuck in my mind, as the pipe itself only looks like it's 3" or so. And looking at that photo more closely, it looks like there is a drip waiting to happen. I suppose that explains the brown bowl I moved out of the way. It had a few drops of water in it.

The vent in fact, does make a 90-degree turn at the top of the cabinet, going right through the wall into the closet where the water heater is. I don't think I could go down from the roof into that at all with that bend in it. I'll have to go in through that black pipe tee. And I have no clue how to take the two apart.

I've attached the two best photos showing what the conditions are under the sink. Ignore the electrical wire, as it's neither hot nor even attached to anything on the other side of the cabinet, and inside the cabinet it goes to a dishwasher that isn't hooked up to anything. No drain, no water, no power. It's just sitting there, not connected to anything. Weird. That's all part of the electrical problems we have in this house. I'm going to be talking to an attorney later in the week, because the sale closing was delayed so the seller "could complete the electrical work" they were doing. If they did anything other than changing out some switches and outlets, I'll eat the house. I'd like to see the permit they had, and/or the county inspection report on it. That's a separate issue entirely. It's why I'm talking to the attorney. I want to find out if I'm liable for paying to have the house rewired and all the non-standard, not-up-to-code wiring in here. I think the seller is, but that's just me.

We don't want a dishwasher anyway, so it won't be a great loss when we remodel.





The "door" (such as it is) leading to the crawl space is about fifteen feet away from that window above the sink, on the other side of the
"closet" where the laundry is. I suppose I am going to have to make some measurements this weekend so I can draw up a representation of what I'm dealing with here, so everyone can see where everything is.

 

[Lancer525]

In most houses gray water and black water are not differentiated. But Eddie is right when he says a layout of the house might give a clue as to how the pipes are run. For instance, if the washer is more toward the front of the house it may use a different pipe run to get to the main sewer line. It is also possible that you have multiple clogs and that is why nothing seems to make sense. If you have a 2" cast iron pipe hub coming up under the kitchen sink it could appear to be over 3" on the outside. Pipe is always measured on the inside diameter and the hubs on cast pipe are much larger than the rest of the pipe. Having three vent pipes through the roof over the areas mentioned makes me think the pluming runs for bath and laundry are separate. IMO you have a clog in your kitchen sink line which may or may not be related to a clog in the line for the bath and lavatory drains. I would "GUESS" the line coming from your kitchen sink is 2" at best and may have the bath and lavatory drains plumbed into that line before arrival at the main sewer line which is more than likely 4". And obviously I am guessing blindly. See if you can get a picture under the kitchen sink. Oh yeah, if you are going to work under that sink just figure you have to literally get at least your head and shoulders inside the cabinet to do much.

I just noticed I misread something in your earlier post. I had it in my head that you were on a slab. It changes nothing in my "Guess" of how the system is run but it does give you more options for repair if required. Where is your crawl space opening in relation to the plumbing fixtures?

The "closet" containing the washer/dryer is immediately to the left of the sink base cabinet in the kitchen, which is along the back wall of the house.

I probably do have a 2" black pipe, but for some reason, my mental image of it was that it was bigger. And I do think you may be correct that the kitchen line is completely separate from the bath line, which are both separate from the laundry line. It explains why the kitchen sink drains the way it does, when everything else drains differently. The laundry is fine. No complaints or problems whatsoever, so far. (watch, now something expensive will go wrong because I dared to mention it!) The bath drains much, much better now that I hit it with the drain cleaner. The sink in the bath drains well now also.

The fact that I'm neither as young nor as slim as I used to be is most of the reason why I am hoping I can wait until the summer to remove the cabinet and replace it with the new ones. If it's not there, I don't have to contort myself up into it.

 

[Fireguy5674]

First, your drain under the cabinet is 2" cast iron. Second, if your washer drain is basically next to the kitchen drain, maybe roughly 2 or 3 feet away, then I bet the two drains meet right under the floor below the sink. The easiest thing you can try is to remove the trap from the drain under the sink and snake the short horizontal section of pipe going to the cast iron tee. Drain the sink into a bucket first obviously, and don't take the chrome section of the trap off. I bet your kitchen sink clog is in that 8 or !0 inches before you get to the tee. Be gentle. The galvanized pipe going into the tee is showing signs of seepage and is probably not long for this world. I have removed pipes like that and found them completely full of crude. That's a technical term for it.

 

[Lancer525]

Man, I can't stand it when professionals throw all that jargon at me!

I'm not sanguine at all about disconnecting anything under there, if I don't absolutely have to. What I'm hearing is that I may absolutely have to. Rats.

I have this little 1/4" hand auger (like this) and I have run it through the sink itself, but could only get about 2 feet of it in before hitting what felt like a completely solid obstruction. I bet it went right into the tee, and hit the back side of it. I think that I am going to have to disconnect the trap from that metal piece that is between the plastic trap and the cast iron pipe, and go in that way. The hand auger only has that little spring thing on the end of it, so I don't know how effective it's going to be.

Without going into a huge amount of detail, since you've said you did it yourself, what exactly is involved in taking that type piping apart? My biggest worry is that I will damage something, and it will no longer be able to be reconnected.

I am already learning a great deal of info here, and am very much appreciative of all you folks' input. Thank you.

 

[Fireguy5674]

This Is the same 1&1/2" size pipe that you have going from your trap to your 2" cast iron. It was full of "crude" but had also rotted out along the entire bottom. What I would do with your problem if I was there would be to remove everything from the trap to the tee and replace it with PVC. A male thread adapter which would screw into the tee. The required length of 1&1/2" PVC pipe glued into the adapter. And finally, a trap adapter glued to the end to accept the trap tail. I am sure when the galvanized pipe is screwed out of the cast iron tee it will be found to have at least part of the threads rusted completely away. More than likely why there is corrosion at that point.
If you do not feel comfortable doing what I described, then don't start on it. Once you start there will be no putting it back. I'm sure it has been undisturbed for many years and won't be in any mood for it now.

 

[Fireguy5674]

You should be able to take the PVC trap off of the chrome without any problem. I believe that was what you replaced after moving in. I don't think you ever got through the trap with your snake. Your small snake should be perfect for cleaning that small straight piece. Turn it in about 3" and then pull it back without turning it. Have a bucket under it when you do because you will very likely get black goo. Then repeat. If you find nothing there, try to feed it in until it goes through the tee and down. If you can get it in there and down some work it back and forth then turn it in deeper.

Sorry, I had already posted the above before I found your reply. I am trying to be concise without writing pages, but if I am unclear, ask me to explain better.

Use a pair of large channel locks to loosen the PVC nut on the chrome trap tail.

 

[Lancer525]

You should be able to take the PVC trap off of the chrome without any problem. I believe that was what you replaced after moving in. I don't think you ever got through the trap with your snake. Your small snake should be perfect for cleaning that small straight piece. Turn it in about 3" and then pull it back without turning it. Have a bucket under it when you do because you will very likely get black goo. Then repeat. If you find nothing there, try to feed it in until it goes through the tee and down. If you can get it in there and down some work it back and forth then turn it in deeper.

Sorry, I had already posted the above before I found your reply. I am trying to be concise without writing pages, but if I am unclear, ask me to explain better.

Use a pair of large channel locks to loosen the PVC nut on the chrome trap tail.

Very thorough, and whatever questions I've got can be inferred. Thanks.

The piece I replaced was at the other end, i.e. the tailpiece which attaches to the underside of the hole in the sink, not the end that goes into the cast iron. I've shied away from that for the very reason you state: Once done, it's done, and no going back. However, if I can get the PVC after the trap off the chrome bit before the cast iron, that will be the way to go, and the last thing I will be capable of doing before it's time to call a plumber in. I worry that once they get in, and get a little done, the project would mushroom, and require everything including the cast iron to be replaced. That unnerves me.

I can say this: I have a much better handle on the project than I did before I came to this forum. You guys are great! And you don't treat us new folks like we should already know everything. Awesome.

 

[Fireguy5674]

No Problem. Let us know how it goes.

 

[Lancer525]

This Is the same 1&1/2" size pipe that you have going from your trap to your 2" cast iron. It was full of "crude" but had also rotted out along the entire bottom. What I would do with your problem if I was there would be to remove everything from the trap to the tee and replace it with PVC. A male thread adapter which would screw into the tee. The required length of 1&1/2" PVC pipe glued into the adapter. And finally, a trap adapter glued to the end to accept the trap tail. I am sure when the galvanized pipe is screwed out of the cast iron tee it will be found to have at least part of the threads rusted completely away. More than likely why there is corrosion at that point.
If you do not feel comfortable doing what I described, then don't start on it. Once you start there will be no putting it back. I'm sure it has been undisturbed for many years and won't be in any mood for it now.

Not to seem like a complete and total idiot (I know, too late...) What will I have to do to remove that chrome piece from the black iron pipe? I gather it's threaded, so that tells me it has to be unscrewed, but what will I need to do to it to make it easier to get unscrewed? WD-40? Some magical plumber's stuff to put on it? There's a pretty big plumbing supply place not far from me, so pretty much anything I'd need can be had. Ii would be great to have this sink working, at least, until the remodel. A big part of my ego says that if it's just the bits up to the cast iron, I could probably do it. Might take me all day, but what the heck.

So how do I get that chrome bit out of the cast iron?

 

[Lancer525]

So how do I get that chrome bit out of the cast iron?

You know, guys... Serendipity and luck are a big part of the Universe. There's always that one in a million occurrence that changes everything.

This morning, in my You Tube recommendations, I got a strange one. Normally, I generally get music, comedy, or science fiction video recommendations, but today, I got this interesting one.

I honestly think I can do this now. Ain't life grand?

 

[Fireguy5674]

The answer to your question above about how the chrome trap tail is attached to the galvanized pipe. "Normally" there is a nut with a square rubber ring behind that seals the smooth trap tail to the end of the pipe. Basically, a trap adapter for metal pipe. It is difficult to see from your picture exactly what was done. I have seen those metal trap seals done different ways, even soldered in place. I have never seen one screwed on.

The You Tube video is very good. My bet is that your pipe won't be in that intact when it comes out, but basic procedure will be the same. If your pipe collapses or breaks off flush, you can still work the remaining pieces of thread out of the cast iron. I usually use a small sharp chisel and a center punch. Then screw in your plastic adaptor and proceed.

As far as how you got that particular video, do you think someone is watching what you look at online?

 

[Lancer525]

The answer to your question above about how the chrome trap tail is attached to the galvanized pipe. "Normally" there is a nut with a square rubber ring behind that seals the smooth trap tail to the end of the pipe. Basically, a trap adapter for metal pipe. It is difficult to see from your picture exactly what was done. I have seen those metal trap seals done different ways, even soldered in place. I have never seen one screwed on.

The You Tube video is very good. My bet is that your pipe won't be in that intact when it comes out, but basic procedure will be the same. If your pipe collapses or breaks off flush, you can still work the remaining pieces of thread out of the cast iron. I usually use a small sharp chisel and a center punch. Then screw in your plastic adaptor and proceed.

As far as how you got that particular video, do you think someone is watching what you look at online?

I don't know why I presumed that it would be far more complicated than it appears to be. I expected there to be some arcane, mystic methodology to the process, since plumbers are so bloody expensive. Like electricians. All the electrical videos I've ever watched, they're all some guy connecting a wire to something. How hard can that be? In my personal experience with electrical work, I've discovered two things. First, it matters which wire is connected to what thing, and no matter which combination of wire-to-thing I use, it doesn't ever work the first time. I never get a hole in one my first time at bat. I even had a student of mine over to the house once. Former electrician in the Navy. He took one look and just shook his head. The electrical issues are probably going to lead to lawsuit, or a fine from the city against the previous owner's contractor, or both before it's over. But that's a ballgame of a different color.

Given the amount of rust and corrosion, I'm fairly certain that the thing isn't going to give up without a fight. My concerns are that I don't damage something beyond my ability to repair, and that I don't hurt myself seriously while doing this. I just shudder at the mental picture of several firefighters and paramedics standing around using the Jaws of Life trying to extricate my broken, bloody body from underneath that cabinet. I'm going to get some of that PB Blaster and use it. The video said it wasn't available at either of the Big Box stores, but their websites say different.

The next issue at hand is getting the correct replacement parts. If I'm careful getting that chrome pipe out of the threaded section of the cast iron, and don't @#$%& up the threads, then I can use a threaded insert there to go to the trap. Just like the guy used here. I'm going to watch about 80 videos related to under-sink plumbing, to get the names of the parts right before I go to the plumbing supply place, mostly so I won't look like the complete imbecile that I am. These things are important.

As for "someone" watching what I look at online, I'm pretty certain they would be bored to tears. I don't seriously believe anyone is watching anything. There are too many tax breaks they could be giving to rich people and corporations, and too many rights to take away from us regular people for them to be wasting any time watching any of us. We aren't that important to them.

 

[bud16415]

I have been following your thread and haven’t posted in a while.



First off you do understand the type of snake you have with the spring on the end needs to be twisted and pushed at the same time to snake around corners. I see you said it stopped at the first turn.



Secondly I feel you have a lot of fear about taking on these projects and I suspect the anxiety will only build as you dig into this. Stuff is going to stick and not come apart and when it does come apart it may break and leave you needing to come up with plan B, C, D etc. It never goes to plan and it almost always involves more driving back and forth for parts than actual wrenching.



You want to get this working to hold you over till you do a major job later. So don’t be afraid to think outside the long term repair box. Do a google search on Fernco Couplings and look at all the sizes and shapes out there. These things can save the day when dealing with old crusty work. They also will bend a little and make things line up that don’t.



Most important is have some old rags handy to plug the pipe when you have to go back for parts so the sewer gas doesn’t come out.

Just rip into it and look at it as a fun adventure. You will build up your confidence and in no time you will be telling others how to fix their plumbing.

 

[Lancer525]

I have been following your thread and haven’t posted in a while.

First off you do understand the type of snake you have with the spring on the end needs to be twisted and pushed at the same time to snake around corners. I see you said it stopped at the first turn.

Secondly I feel you have a lot of fear about taking on these projects and I suspect the anxiety will only build as you dig into this. Stuff is going to stick and not come apart and when it does come apart it may break and leave you needing to come up with plan B, C, D etc. It never goes to plan and it almost always involves more driving back and forth for parts than actual wrenching.

You want to get this working to hold you over till you do a major job later. So don’t be afraid to think outside the long term repair box. Do a google search on Fernco Couplings and look at all the sizes and shapes out there. These things can save the day when dealing with old crusty work. They also will bend a little and make things line up that don’t.

Most important is have some old rags handy to plug the pipe when you have to go back for parts so the sewer gas doesn’t come out.

Just rip into it and look at it as a fun adventure. You will build up your confidence and in no time you will be telling others how to fix their plumbing.

Thanks for the very sage words.

I must have played with that dang auger/snake thing for over an hour, pulling, pushing, twisting, and doing everything else I could think of, short of dancing an Irish Jig on the countertop to get it to go farther in than it did. My wife said that I probably hit the obstruction, and she just might be on to something, based on some of the videos I've seen. She's a smart woman, in spite of the fact that she married me. I wonder if there isn't a quarter-inch hole in the middle of all that crud(e) inside the 2 inch cast iron pipe. I wouldn't be a bit surprised.

I do have a fair amount of worry about this. Almost every other project I've attempted in this house has ended up getting to a point where I either didn't have something I needed to continue, or the project mushroomed into me having to do far more than I was willing or able to commit to doing. Case in point: The very first thing I started to fix before we even got fully moved in, was the rod in a closet in the spare bedroom. The seller, in his haste to get the house sold, just cut two holes in the drywall, and ran a large dowel through them. I was going to put a pair of proper rod-holders in, but the framing inside the closet isn't remotely close to standard building practices, and I couldn't find any studs to which I could attach anything. I used a dental mirror to look inside the drywall, and only saw two studs. One at the back corner, and one about 6" from it. Nothing else. So, I stopped work on that one, because we were still moving things. Now, nearly six months later, other, more important jobs have come up, and that closet still isn't fixed. I've got this @#$%& plumbing thing to figure out, a kitchen to remodel, a wall between the dining room and kitchen to remove, a garden/tool shed to build, and every other thing that homeowners have to do for maintenance. Paint, carpeting, you name it.

You wouldn't believe the problems I've had with the electrical wiring. The seller's real estate agent asked to delay closing for 30 days so they could "complete the rewiring of the house to bring it up to code." I wonder what they did with all that time, because I've got poor quality outlets and switches (I've already replaced nine of them) and a couple of light fixtures that didn't work or weren't connected to switches. One breaker shuts off all the lights in the house, but it takes five more breakers to kill all the outlets. And even then, I still have some outlets that are hot, no matter what breaker I throw in the panel. I had to go outside to the main breaker to shut off all the power to the house to kill them so they could be replaced. I've got bare wires hanging from a junction box in the utility room, covered by an old ceramic bulb fixture that wasn't even hooked up. The wiring for the dishwasher is just wire-nutted and electrical taped under the cabinet. Not hooked to anything. I have outlets that have no power, switches that turn nothing on or off, and still a couple of fixtures that no matter what, don't light up. This house is nowhere near electrical code, and I'm about to go after the seller's electrician.

So I hope it's understandable why I have a little "fear" about taking on something as important as major plumbing. I've already replaced all the guts in the tank of the toilet, and installed a new shower head and the faucet fixture in the bath. The dishwasher (not that we ever use it) is just sitting in the cabinet, not even hooked up to any power, or hooked up to any water, or any drain. I know what Ferncos are, and thanks for suggesting them. I used one to repair the terra cotta sewer line at my old house almost 15 years ago. Had to drive to Atlanta to get a 6-inch one, but I got it, and it worked as advertised. Just a few days ago, a guy in the plumbing department at the hardware store suggested I tear out all the cast iron I could reach, and replace it with ABS. He told me to use them to connect the ABS fittings to the cast iron I couldn't get to. I hadn't thought of that.

For most of my adult life, I did all the major and minor repairs to my previous house, the one my parents bought in 1967. I've put in ceiling fans, replaced the dishwasher, washing machine, repaired the dryer, replaced two toilets, repaired the main sewer line, repaired the drain for the laundry, put in two pool liners, rewired the whole garage, re-roofed the carriage house, and almost everything else. I handled everything there, and thought that I knew my way around most home repairs. That is, until I bought this house. There was no way for us to know this, because no job had ever been started by us, but there is almost nothing that is "standard" in this structure. Most of the interior walls aren't plaster or drywall. They are stain-grade plywood. I found out last week from the Tax Assessor's office that their records show it is supposed to have a fireplace. I have no idea where one could go, because there's no place for one, structurally. Don't get me wrong, this house is a lovely little cottage on a quiet street, not far from shopping and our workplaces, the kitchen is beautifully laid out (just needs new doors and drawer fronts, and a new countertop), the bath is mostly trouble free, but it's the screwiest building I have ever seen in terms of what is where, and how it was built. Did they even know what they were doing in 1951? Sometimes I don't think so. I've seen homes built in the 1820s that are easier to deal with than this one.

I would never dream of telling anyone how to do their plumbing. Not being a plumber, it would be arrogant as hell of me to even think of it. I could share my experience, the screw-ups I've committed, and relate stories of what not to do, but that's about it. I fully intend to try to have a little fun doing this, and I don't have to tell you that there is no better feeling than the Godlike Feeling of Power that you get from finishing a job when everything works and there are no parts or screws left over. In truth, I'd wager that there is going to be a huge amount of bourbon consumed before this is all over.

I apologize for writing War and Peace, but I had to vent a little. You've given me some great advice, and I do intend to follow it. Thank you.

 

[Lancer525]

Well, after a few days of worrying about work-related things, I started another small project, just to get something done in the interim.

I now have absolutely no confidence in my ability to do a damn thing around this house. Spent the last 1 hour and 20 minutes trying to install a damn cabinet latch. Ended up breaking three out of the four, and the cabinet door would not stay closed no matter what I did.

I have never had a single success doing a ^$#!&%! thing in this house. Not one. I managed the entire house we lived in before we moved here, with zero failures or issues, but when I get here, to this one, I can't even install a freaking light bulb without finding ten other major problems. Think I'm kidding about that? I tried to unscrew the bulb and the glass came out of the metal socket. Went to shut off the power, and found that the base was still hot. Had to go outside to shut off the entire house's electricity, and ended up breaking the ceramic base getting it out. The two wires have wire nuts on them now, and no fixture. Colossal failure.

 

[oldognewtrick]

If it's any consulation, we've all been there. The main thing is to learn from your experience and use that knowledge to do other things. No one's born knowing how to do anything but poop and cry. So, it's just like eating an elephant...one bite at a time. It may be frustrating, but think of how good you'll feel when something does go right.