Replacing switches in bath 4-function exhaust/heater/lights unit

[nealtw]

Could be something just happened to come on at the same second and has nothing to do with anything. I had a lightbulb burn out one time just as I flipped a breaker and it drove me nuts trying to tie the two things together.

Should be easy to prove by just heating the breaker on and off a few times.
I want to know what kind of heat that is, just a heat lamp or baseboard heat with 220 volt. At this point there would be nothing an any box that I didn't know about, including the breaker panel.

 

[bud16415]

I assumed it is one of those red bulbs that were the thing back in the day. I haven’t seen one of them in quite a while.

 

[nealtw]

I assumed it is one of those red bulbs that were the thing back in the day. I haven’t seen one of them in quite a while.

Me too, but I think we need all the info, proved.

 

[theorbo]

What kind of a breaker is the circuit on? Is it a single or double. When you see a cable with the red and black that can be a 220v multi wire branch circuit were they bring 220 up on one cable and then make two 110v circuits.

This is a double-breaker ... and to make sure I am explaining correctly what I think you are asking I mean that in the circuit breaker panel there are two little switches that move in tandem for this one circuit.

 

[nealtw]

The other breaker is running something elsewhere in the house!!
Have you got a meter or test light, how are you proving there no power to the box?

 

[theorbo]

Is the old fan still installed?
Have another look at the white wire that dissapears behind the red in the photo showing all the wires.

Thanks for the advice, nealtw. The old fan/apparatus is still installed as I am not trying to replace it, only the switches. It is a round Nutone 9093WH. This is not a heat lamp, or bulb, but rather a non-visible 1500W "fan-forced" heater (heat is from a heat element).

I am not at home during the day but there are three white wires in the box. Two that come from each of the "red-white-black-copper" bundles that are sheathed in black (appear to come in from the top of the box). And then a third white wire that appears to be traveling with a black wire (without a red). And yes, to another's comment ... this black is the B3 wire in the middle of the photo.

 

[theorbo]

R U going to have the timer on both FAN (VENT) circuits or just the FAN?

I don't see (or fail to see in the instructions the wanted AMPERAGE of the supply circuit, whether 15A or 20A (I would think with the heat lamp it would be 20A). Have you checked code to see if the install calls for GFCI protection?

Thanks, kultulz. My goal is to have the timer control ONLY the exhaust fan/vent and NOT the heater. This probably doesn't answer your question but the switches previously used were 15 amp, i recognize that this doesn't necessarily mean it was wired correctly.

Here are the specs I've found for this unit:
http://www.nutone.com/products/product/94825119-2ac2-4332-ad48-26867766d73f

My understanding was that GFCI protection was only needed if this was installed over shower/tub, which this is not. I will confirm this, however.

 

[theorbo]

Looking at your before sketch it shows power coming in on B3 the jumper bar is intact on the right side of both switches so B4 wire jumpers power to the other switch. B1, B2, R1 and R2 all go up to do the different things. That’s how it was working.

B3 should be your hot wire. I don’t know how the combo switch is set up, but you need to jumper power between the two switches. On the timer side line should be power and load should be what it controls and B3 has to be jumpered to that line.

Thank you. The new combination switch also has a tab that keeps all three functions on the same circuit unless I remove the tab, which I have not. That's why I thought I could bring-in the power on the lower left common and could use the lower right common to feed the timer.

 

[theorbo]

Thanks,
David

Did you turn the breaker on just the once, or repeated times to insure that, that was the occurrence?

Your planned installation appears correct.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Snoonyb. I have closed the breaker twice and got the same noise both times.

 

[Snoonyb]

I assumed it is one of those red bulbs that were the thing back in the day. I haven’t seen one of them in quite a while.

It's a Nickel-chrome, 15ooW, open coil, fan forced.

 

[nealtw]

We do need more information, the noise may have been something like a garburator, left turn on because it didn't work when the power was off.
You can get into the wiring of the fan from the front by removing the screen and pulling the motor plate and the wires are there
I would drop the light so you can see the wires and if you can open the heater to see the wires I would do that to.
Are the two breakers labeled?
You need some sort of testing equipment, some where you have 240 volts in one of those boxes.

 

[Snoonyb]

Did you turn the breaker on just the once, or repeated times to insure that, that was the occurrence?

Your planned installation appears correct.

Thanks, Snoonyb. I have closed the breaker twice and got the same noise both times.[/QUOTE]

Have you opened the "J" box in the appliance to determine if the power is junctioned there, prior to traveling to the switch box?

As they age, these open coil heating elements will began to rattle. It's just a function of age.

 

[Snoonyb]

Thanks for the advice, nealtw. The old fan/apparatus is still installed as I am not trying to replace it, only the switches. It is a round Nutone 9093WH. This is not a heat lamp, or bulb, but rather a non-visible 1500W "fan-forced" heater (heat is from a heat element).

I am not at home during the day but there are three white wires in the box. Two that come from each of the "red-white-black-copper" bundles that are sheathed in black (appear to come in from the top of the box). And then a third white wire that appears to be traveling with a black wire (without a red). And yes, to another's comment ... this black is the B3 wire in the middle of the photo.

Is the breaker a 15 or 20A?

 

[theorbo]

Is the breaker a 15 or 20A?

Each of the breakers in this pair are 20A. I was able to open the apparatus and there is a junction box with plugs on this side of it. I am thinking that the wiring is junctioned in there before traveling to the switches.

I am wondering if a short in between the junction box and the switches is sending current back to the motor, enough to make it buzz/hum but not enough to power it?

Now that I'm inside this device it appears to be 30+ years old, considering just replacing it while i'm going through all of this.

 

[nealtw]

Each of the breakers in this pair are 20A. I was able to open the apparatus and there is a junction box with plugs on this side of it. I am thinking that the wiring is junctioned in there before traveling to the switches.

I am wondering if a short in between the junction box and the switches is sending current back to the motor, enough to make it buzz/hum but not enough to power it?

Now that I'm inside this device it appears to be 30+ years old, considering just replacing it while i'm going through all of this.

Take photos.not sure what you have opened

 

[Snoonyb]

Each of the breakers in this pair are 20A. I was able to open the apparatus and there is a junction box with plugs on this side of it. I am thinking that the wiring is junctioned in there before traveling to the switches.

I am wondering if a short in between the junction box and the switches is sending current back to the motor, enough to make it buzz/hum but not enough to power it?

Now that I'm inside this device it appears to be 30+ years old, considering just replacing it while i'm going through all of this.

It is odd that there could/would be 2, 20A breakers powering an appliance that is usually powered by a single 20A.

Is there power on any of the conductors in the switch box, metered to the grnd. or white conductors?

Are you familiar with or comfortable with working behind the dead front panel of the elec. service?

The dead front panel is the removable metal panel covering the inner workings of the service.

 

[slownsteady]

In case someone here hasn't looked at the links in post #1, here is the diagram supplied by the switch maker.:

 

[slownsteady]

There is nothing in that unit that requires 220V, so it is a mystery why that thing is on a double pole breaker. But when you throw that breaker I bet a bunch of stuff in your house goes on or off. You need to shut it off and walk around your house and map out what is turned off. You can do that with a small desk lamp or a plug-in radio, or better yet, one of those little dummy lights - er, I mean a circuit tester. As soon as you feel comfortable with what you're getting into, think about moving the bathroom fixture onto a single 20A breaker. Call a pro if you're not comfortable doing that.
The "Jbox" that is up inside the ceiling box is basically nothing but a 4-outlet receptacle. there are four outlets visible, and if you open that, I think you will find all the whites tied together and each of the blacks tied to one of the wires coming from the switches. I think you may also find the outlets are labeled by the Mfr, but they might have fallen off over the years.

According to your first diagram and the labels on your old switch plate (if the labels were accurate) : R1 feed the vent, R2 feeds the heater, B1 feeds the light and B2 feeds the nightlite. That leaves B3 which may be the hot line - check this before going forward because only you can confirm the guessing that we are doing.
As best as I can tell from the switch instructions, the hot line wants to go to the switch where you currently have the B4 jumper

 

[bud16415]

In your panel is every breaker spot taken?

The way you had your new switches wired looks right to me.

I doubt you have any kind of a short in the fixture that’s causing the buzz. Have someone listen for the noise when you turn the switch on. the other half of that breaker is controlling something different in your house. As SNS mentioned you have to find out what else is on that breaker.

 

[theorbo]

There is nothing in that unit that requires 220V, so it is a mystery why that thing is on a double pole breaker. But when you throw that breaker I bet a bunch of stuff in your house goes on or off.

I am not sure about the circuit breaker ... I have emailed the previous home owners to ask them if some work was done that necessitated putting the Nutone on a separate circuit. I have not found any other light or outlet in the home that is sharing this circuit with the Nutone bathroom fixture.

Here's some pics of both the circuit breaker panel and the opened fixture. I believe that we can see the j-box, but I haven't torn into it yet. The circuit I am using is #4, second from top-right in the box. The writing from someone in the past has written "Bath" and "Nutone" to the right of the breaker. In small print on each of the little toggles it says "20A" and in this case there are two that move in tandem.