Tesla Achilles Heel

[Spicoli43]

Fair enough. Now picture the country as it is now with all gas powered cars and everyone has a gas pump at home they use for filling their cars for all trips say of 150 miles or less. The only time you go to the gas station would be when you are taking a trip and not near your home. All the local mini-marts will be a thing of the past for gas. They will lose that income stream so they may or may not be able to hang on selling loto tickets and coffee. No one will willingly want to buy power away from the home for their cars as it will cost much more. If Grandma lives 100 miles from you then when you get to her house you will say mind if I charge my car before we leave and you will plug into her fuel pump.



The real place charging will be done away from the home will be people doing long road trips. What percentage of say the average persons usage is that is the question.



Now you have to take a look at the intermediate steps along the way. maybe the most critical will be 50/50 as I see it as a tipping point most haven’t thought about. Lets say there are 50% of the population that maybe most of us fall into that will be able to switch over to a filling station at home and even afford an EV without much pain. Now you have the people being left behind and the gasoline infrastructure trying to run on half the consumption The corner convenience stores will become the blacksmiths and the buggy whip companies of the future. I’m sure there were a point when the horse people started hurting and the hay growers were wondering what to do as well when autos replaced horses.



Change is never easy.

As a side note 18 months ago we didn’t have to buy any fuel from our enemies.

The EV aspect of refilling will work for home station people that only commute 30 miles or less or whatever. That's it, though. The other arguments about prices of the vehicle and batteries are the glaring problems for them.

As far as the mini marts, they don't make enough on gas to even mention it, at least according to some owners I have talked to, including an old neighbor. The attraction of having gas pumps is so people buy everything else in the store while they are there. A pump and drive off doesn't make them any money. If I remember correctly, one owner said the profit was 2 cents a gallon or less. I saw one report a long time ago that said the average gas station in a small city makes $80K a month on the garbage right by the register. That's why they own the joint.

It's not that they are trying to usher in EV's, it's that they are trying to control us under the guise that they are trying to "save the planet" that has been through Millions of Earthquakes, Tornadoes, Hurricanes, Meteor strikes, Tsunamis, etc. and is just fine. "Global Warming" is a global hoax, so they quietly changed it to "Climate Change", which hasn't happened in 70,000 years.

Can't have a non polluting pipeline, but can transport oil in polluting Trains and Semis. That's called a Democrat Mascot Face Palm, Kids...

 

[bud16415]

The EV aspect of refilling will work for home station people that only commute 30 miles or less or whatever. That's it, though. The other arguments about prices of the vehicle and batteries are the glaring problems for them.

As far as the mini marts, they don't make enough on gas to even mention it, at least according to some owners I have talked to, including an old neighbor. The attraction of having gas pumps is so people buy everything else in the store while they are there. A pump and drive off doesn't make them any money. If I remember correctly, one owner said the profit was 2 cents a gallon or less. I saw one report a long time ago that said the average gas station in a small city makes $80K a month on the garbage right by the register. That's why they own the joint.

It's not that they are trying to usher in EV's, it's that they are trying to control us under the guise that they are trying to "save the planet" that has been through Millions of Earthquakes, Tornadoes, Hurricanes, Meteor strikes, Tsunamis, etc. and is just fine. "Global Warming" is a global hoax, so they quietly changed it to "Climate Change", which hasn't happened in 70,000 years.

Can't have a non polluting pipeline, but can transport oil in polluting Trains and Semis. That's called a Democrat Mascot Face Palm, Kids...

Oh don’t get me wrong I’m in no way a proponent of forcing any technology that is not yet ready for primetime down our throats. The reason gasoline and automobiles came to be is because oil was being extracted from the ground for kerosene for lighting homes and they had an abundance of this byproduct stuff called gasoline that was too flammable and dangerous for lamps and they had no use for it and were actually dumping it. Ford came along and put 2+2 together. The government didn’t come in saying horses were bad the automobile stood on its own and was a desired product and fuel was cheap and abundant.



This business of manipulation of markets comes later.



I would buy an EV when and if it made real logical reason to do it. I’m not deluding myself I have to do it to save the world. I will do it when it gets me from point A to point B in a reasonable way I like.

This hurrying things along like making gas prices double in order to flip the logic don’t really work. People know when they are being manipulated and when pain is caused in the process push back. On the other hand when everything is too simple people stop looking for the next best thing. Incentive is key to it all not passion.

 

[Eddie_T]

The sad thing is that the majority of the voting public never hears what we are discussing. Even Sharyl's reporting in my area is @ 00:30 and what she reports might be obvious to a few of us but not to the general public. Meanwhile the schoolkids are being force fed the 'green' crap to bring home to mommy and daddy..

 

[Spicoli43]

Yes. I would buy an EV if it was $10,000 and the battery cost $500... Not a $50,000 Tesla with an 8 year warranty on a battery that costs $17,000 now, probably $30,000 in 8 years.

None of it makes sense, none of it, and that's from me that desperately tried to get the Electric riding mower last year that was WAY TOO SOON for primetime.

The Democrats HAVE TO artificially lower the gas prices soon before midterms. Of course, they will have to say something good happened in Russia since they blamed it on Putin and not Biden destroying our energy independence.

 

[Eddie_T]

The government is a real loser. Nothing to do with EV but look at the money the government spends trying to artificially restore the balance of nature in Yellowstone. The reality is there is no balance in nature it is a floating point like a bowling handicap.

 

[bud16415]

The sad thing is that the majority of the voting public never hears what we are discussing. Even Sharyl's reporting in my area is @ 00:30 and what she reports might be obvious to a few of us but not to the general public. Meanwhile the schoolkids are being force fed the 'green' crap to bring home to mommy and daddy..

I don’t really have an issue with being green or moving in the direction of green. I much prefer smashing my aluminum can putting it in a plastic barrel in the basement and once a year taking the barrel in and getting some cash for the scrap as opposed to filling the landfill or tossing them out the car window.



Kids need a perspective and an honest perspective on “green” as it relates to efficiency and that it is a goal not a religion.



I worked my whole working life building diesel electric locomotives. We were hybrid before anyone knew what hybrid was. Close to 50 years ago we were building some pretty powerful locomotives and also pretty dirty. I was out west one time and the CEO of one of the major railroads was giving us a talk and he related his costs for fuel to us and told us for one penny price per gallon in fuel in one year he has spent the same amount as the entire fleet of locomotives. He said it works in reverse and if we could improve our fuel efficiency by that same one penny amount he would be scrapping and buying new 1000s of new locomotives from us. You better believe we started making better locomotives and the byproduct was they were also cleaner. In the end our cost to haul a ton of whatever from point A-B was so many times better than over the road trucking it was ridicules. That’s where the piggyback container concept came about and trucking and rail worked together so well.

We never had much luck in this country convincing people to travel on trains though. Remember the auto train where when you got to Fla your car was waiting for you?

 

[Sparky617]

I don’t really have an issue with being green or moving in the direction of green. I much prefer smashing my aluminum can putting it in a plastic barrel in the basement and once a year taking the barrel in and getting some cash for the scrap as opposed to filling the landfill or tossing them out the car window.



Kids need a perspective and an honest perspective on “green” as it relates to efficiency and that it is a goal not a religion.



I worked my whole working life building diesel electric locomotives. We were hybrid before anyone knew what hybrid was. Close to 50 years ago we were building some pretty powerful locomotives and also pretty dirty. I was out west one time and the CEO of one of the major railroads was giving us a talk and he related his costs for fuel to us and told us for one penny price per gallon in fuel in one year he has spent the same amount as the entire fleet of locomotives. He said it works in reverse and if we could improve our fuel efficiency by that same one penny amount he would be scrapping and buying new 1000s of new locomotives from us. You better believe we started making better locomotives and the byproduct was they were also cleaner. In the end our cost to haul a ton of whatever from point A-B was so many times better than over the road trucking it was ridicules. That’s where the piggyback container concept came about and trucking and rail worked together so well.

We never had much luck in this country convincing people to travel on trains though. Remember the auto train where when you got to Fla your car was waiting for you?

Bud,
Given your background, why haven't we electrified freight railroads in the USA? The North East corridor is largely electrified for passenger rail but freight remains diesel/electric. Is it the heavier loads of freight versus passenger rail? Can't it be fixed by adding more locomotives like you do on freight anyway? Or does the electrical capacity of the lines come into play?

 

[Spicoli43]

The government is a real loser. Nothing to do with EV but look at the money the government spends trying to artificially restore the balance of nature in Yellowstone. The reality is there is no balance in nature it is a floating point like a bowling handicap.

Yes, nature can take care of itself without a bunch of humans arrogantly thinking they can control the narrative. It's just insanity that all these sheep are running around spouting off about "Climate change" when the last time the Earth was 1 degree cooler, nobody currently alive was born yet.

 

[bud16415]

Bud,
Given your background, why haven't we electrified freight railroads in the USA? The North East corridor is largely electrified for passenger rail but freight remains diesel/electric. Is it the heavier loads of freight versus passenger rail? Can't it be fixed by adding more locomotives like you do on freight anyway? Or does the electrical capacity of the lines come into play?

I’m not up on all the details being retired and where fuel costs are right now but yes it is all economics and competition.



Most transit rail is all electric and in transit cars each car has its own propulsion system and the loading for passengers is really low compared to freight. The actual passenger trains are a mix and some run full electric when near and in cities and then between cities switch. Transmission costs and safety are the big factors in wide-open stretches of country. The biggest change that took place over the last 10-15 years I worked was the switch from DC-AC in traction motor design. The distance between the rails limits the size of the motor and some was taken up with gearing and with DC a large part was commutator not needed with AC. We had the DC traction motor over 1000 HP x 6 per locomotive and it was at the limit of technology. They were very popular HP to size and we sold spin offs to the drilling industry and marine industry.



I think the way fuel cost are now it is just going to be passed on from the railroad to who they supply another factor of the high inflation that’s going to drag us down. Cost go up consumption goes down they print more money and your money is worth less and the spiral begins. The couple senators that voted against the green deal may have saved the country or at least slowed it down as last report I saw if that was added in we would likely be at 25% inflation and that would be a spiral imposable to pull out of.



I’m sure the railroads are pulling their hair out right now as even if they wanted make changes they would be too uncertain to do them.



As a side note we built rapid transit cars in my plant for many years and still made propulsion equipment for them until shortly before I retired. It was an amazing business but all the costumers were cities and governmental bodies. The competitors were all overseas and highly subsidized by their governments and it was a nightmare of a business.



We always had a strong presence in the off road mining trucks making motorized wheels.



We got into the battery business before I left making giant liquid salt batteries that had to stay hot enough to keep these salts molten to work. They were going to be used for the power grid management.



We were in the windmill business for about 10 years china was building our product and we in Erie were building a competitors product that was much better than what we were marketing under our name made in China. When it came out the product we were making was better selling much better we were told by corporate to get out of the business.

When I was a young man things in business and industry all seemed so logical and straight forward. About half way thru none of it seemed logical anymore.

 

[Sparky617]

I’m not up on all the details being retired and where fuel costs are right now but yes it is all economics and competition.



Most transit rail is all electric and in transit cars each car has its own propulsion system and the loading for passengers is really low compared to freight. The actual passenger trains are a mix and some run full electric when near and in cities and then between cities switch. Transmission costs and safety are the big factors in wide-open stretches of country. The biggest change that took place over the last 10-15 years I worked was the switch from DC-AC in traction motor design. The distance between the rails limits the size of the motor and some was taken up with gearing and with DC a large part was commutator not needed with AC. We had the DC traction motor over 1000 HP x 6 per locomotive and it was at the limit of technology. They were very popular HP to size and we sold spin offs to the drilling industry and marine industry.



I think the way fuel cost are now it is just going to be passed on from the railroad to who they supply another factor of the high inflation that’s going to drag us down. Cost go up consumption goes down they print more money and your money is worth less and the spiral begins. The couple senators that voted against the green deal may have saved the country or at least slowed it down as last report I saw if that was added in we would likely be at 25% inflation and that would be a spiral imposable to pull out of.



I’m sure the railroads are pulling their hair out right now as even if they wanted make changes they would be too uncertain to do them.



As a side note we built rapid transit cars in my plant for many years and still made propulsion equipment for them until shortly before I retired. It was an amazing business but all the costumers were cities and governmental bodies. The competitors were all overseas and highly subsidized by their governments and it was a nightmare of a business.



We always had a strong presence in the off road mining trucks making motorized wheels.



We got into the battery business before I left making giant liquid salt batteries that had to stay hot enough to keep these salts molten to work. They were going to be used for the power grid management.



We were in the windmill business for about 10 years china was building our product and we in Erie were building a competitors product that was much better than what we were marketing under our name made in China. When it came out the product we were making was better selling much better we were told by corporate to get out of the business.

When I was a young man things in business and industry all seemed so logical and straight forward. About half way thru none of it seemed logical anymore.

I was thinking the long haul stuff using overhead power, not transit using the third rail.

 

[bud16415]

I was thinking the long haul stuff using overhead power, not transit using the third rail.

They do use the overhead catenary wires and pantograph in some location. The voltages are very high to keep conductor size down and can’t be insulated so like the third rail they can have safety issues. Then there are tunnels that would cause a whole new set of problems as right now the locomotives barely fit thru the old tunnels.



Then there is the issue of locomotives run in a consist of two or more normally and would all be drawing a huge amount of power from almost one location on the catenary.

I’m sure it could be done as they are planning to electrify the country for EVs and that also is no little task. Anything can be done given enough time and money. The conditions to warrant the change have to be met first. So by the time we are spending $40/gallon for gas there may be a strong incentive to electrify the railroads. As long as they are at it they might as well put in new rail beds as what we have now is some very old stuff that limits any kind of high-speed rail.

 

[Eddie_T]

Is the return path through the rail or a catenary wire?

 

[Sparky617]

I think the Washington DC to Boston line is electrified. The line from here in NC to Washington is not. As I recall the line from Philadelphia to Harrisburg and beyond wasn't electrified, but I could be wrong on that. I rode it once, but that was a long time ago. I used to ride the Amtrak line from Princeton Junction NJ to 30th Street Station in Philadelphia many years ago as a daily commuter for several months. I know most of the cross country stuff is not. The cross country tunnels must be bigger though because they run the double decker passenger rail cars on some of it. I could see stringing a couple of electric locomotives together could be a pretty big load on the overhead lines.

 

[bud16415]

Is the return path through the rail or a catenary wire?

I’m not positive but I believe the return path is the rails and the rails are grounded at each support pole. It is a complex setup as the locomotive has to transfer on the fly between its own power when entering a city and the catenary power. We sold locomotives all around the world so we dealt with all kinds different gages and power setups.
I was never real involved in that stuff.

 

[BuzzLOL]

All new EVs should be made with the capability of quickly dropping the discharged battery out the bottom and a charged one back up and in...

 

[BuzzLOL]

As everyone knows the president sets the price so it's his fault.

When you have someone stinking up our White House that hates working people, responsible people, homeowners, businesses, business people, landlords, cripples, and senior citizens, we see the results in super high gas prices, horrible policies, unneeded wars, and horrendous inflation!

 

[Spicoli43]

All new EVs should be made with the capability of quickly dropping the discharged battery out the bottom and a charged one back up and in...

They should be mounted in the trunk like an amplifier would be mounted, and removable like you say. Tech will eventually catch up I assume, but it went backwards with the giant brick "smart phones".

 

[Sparky617]

The sled concept used on EVs is a pretty good design. Early EVs, including Tesla's had batteries that were easily exchanged. I'd bet with the super chargers the need for quick swapping was eliminated. You can get an EV up to 80% charge in about 20 minutes. The last 20% is much slower. With an 80% your good for several hours of highway driving. Most people don't take hours long trips on the highway daily.

Apartment and urban dwellers will present a challenge for at home charging, but as EVs become a larger portion of the global fleet the charging infrastructure will grow to meet the demand. I think CNG powered cars and trucks should have expanded beyond fleets, but that never seemed to become an option.

 

[Snoonyb]

The tanks take up more space in the P/U bed, than a tool box.

Received my Regis. renewal for my 2003 CUMMINS, and the bottom note in the, charges for detail, was Electric Surcharge, so t's coming.

 

[Sparky617]

The tanks take up more space in the P/U bed, than a tool box.

Received my Regis. renewal for my 2003 CUMMINS, and the bottom note in the, charges for detail, was Electric Surcharge, so t's coming.

CNG tanks? On a pickup they could go under the bed between the rails. It only makes sense that electric surcharges will be coming as the number of EVs goes up. Gas tax is a primary source of road building money, though at both the state and federal level they siphon off gas tax money into the general funds.