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bud16415

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I can only speak to our personal experience we have both recovered from covid19 about a week ago. I’m 65 and she is younger and we are both pretty active but I held back a little more as I figured I was in a higher risk age group, but face it when you live with others if one of you get it the other will likely get it as well. She had symptoms first loss of taste and smell and sore throat and slight breathing discomfort. I told her go get a test and she did and they advise you to assume you have it even though it takes a week to get the results. So we started a 14 day lock down. When they called and said she had it I was also getting the same symptoms and they suggested I should just assume I have it also and I was ok with not having a swab shoved up my nose. And was already locked down. I know others have serious problems with it but for us it was about like having a mild cold. I have in the past a couple times had a rough bout with flu and this was nothing like that and just about every winter I get a cold that’s much worse than we had with covid19. I did start taking zinc as soon as she started having issues and I did get my quad flu shot a month ago. Her mother a nurse also came down with it a week before we did and we may have got it from her. She also called it a mild cold like symptoms.



Today I went out for a short bike ride maybe 3 miles and I can tell my lungs are not 100% and muscles were a little sore when riding but each day it gets a little better and some of it might be from sitting on the couch for 3 weeks.



All in all we didn’t hear of one case here in our little corner of Pa of anyone we knew personally and now we know about a dozen. No one we know were admitted to the hospital but one lady we know had some breathing treatments over a couple days.



I guess I have some immunity now for at least a while. We are still wearing our masks but going on with life as normal. Over the weekend we went out for dinner and it was nice to feel like we were doing something normal again. They were seating people every other table and the workers all had masks.

My sister who is 10 years older than me has been scared to death or of death and has not set foot out of her house for 9 months now. We talk on the phone is all and once I drove over and we talked on the phone thru her window. I never told her I had it even as all that would have done is convince her to stay locked in forever. Life is about taking smart risks because if not it isn’t life it is just existing. :)
 

Fireguy5674

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Glad to hear you and yours are doing well Bud.

I don't huddle in the house. I try to condense my trips to town a little more and wear a mask when I do go. But there is some reason the hospitals fill up when the Covid positivity rates go up. So, if we all just abandon any kind of caution and let this freewheel there is a real possibility that there will be no room in hospitals when there is a wreck with injuries or a heart attack or whatever. Or there aren't enough doctors to treat you when you have a need. Ask people in third world countries with poorer medical systems.

The other factor that tends to make me believe Covid deaths are real is the average mortality rates. The figures I have seen show that mortality rates climb when Covid cases spike. While we now are better at treating Covid, so there is less increase, there is still a correlation. No one has to decide who died of Covid and who didn't. The numbers are the numbers.

As usual, the truth probably lies somewhere between the two extremes. Also, as usual, we tend to believe only what we actually see. I don't personally know anyone that has died or even been really sick. The biggest outbreak in the county where I live has been in the state prison. I believe the county still has well under 100 deaths. However, the cases are rising as with most places right now, so that means there are more exposure risks. One grandson and a daughter-in-law currently have Covid. The daughter-in-law was having some difficulty breathing yesterday. A step son has been exposed and can't go home while he quarantines. The county is putting him up in a hotel for two weeks. I found out yesterday that a friend, who I sat across from in a meeting a week ago, tested positive yesterday.

People who are spreading the virus either asymptomatically or before symptoms appear don't put off any warnings so it is easy to get complacent. I know I do. I believe it is going to be a long winter before the vaccine becomes available and we start to get a handle on this.

Just my thoughts.
 

bud16415

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Glad to hear you and yours are doing well Bud.

I don't huddle in the house. I try to condense my trips to town a little more and wear a mask when I do go. But there is some reason the hospitals fill up when the Covid positivity rates go up. So, if we all just abandon any kind of caution and let this freewheel there is a real possibility that there will be no room in hospitals when there is a wreck with injuries or a heart attack or whatever. Or there aren't enough doctors to treat you when you have a need. Ask people in third world countries with poorer medical systems.

The other factor that tends to make me believe Covid deaths are real is the average mortality rates. The figures I have seen show that mortality rates climb when Covid cases spike. While we now are better at treating Covid, so there is less increase, there is still a correlation. No one has to decide who died of Covid and who didn't. The numbers are the numbers.

As usual, the truth probably lies somewhere between the two extremes. Also, as usual, we tend to believe only what we actually see. I don't personally know anyone that has died or even been really sick. The biggest outbreak in the county where I live has been in the state prison. I believe the county still has well under 100 deaths. However, the cases are rising as with most places right now, so that means there are more exposure risks. One grandson and a daughter-in-law currently have Covid. The daughter-in-law was having some difficulty breathing yesterday. A step son has been exposed and can't go home while he quarantines. The county is putting him up in a hotel for two weeks. I found out yesterday that a friend, who I sat across from in a meeting a week ago, tested positive yesterday.

People who are spreading the virus either asymptomatically or before symptoms appear don't put off any warnings so it is easy to get complacent. I know I do. I believe it is going to be a long winter before the vaccine becomes available and we start to get a handle on this.

Just my thoughts.

I totally agree that the truth is someplace in the middle. In the very beginning the story was that the lock down was to flatten the curve. It was a buying time strategy more than stopping the thing strategy. I remember hearing the experts say if we do nothing there will likely be a big spike that would overwhelm the medical system and cause a shortage of beds and equipment like ventilators. So the smart play was taken and even though there were no cases around here we all went into lockdown while the big cities like NYC exploded at a slower rate than it could have been. There were smatterings of cases here and the tracking and all that worked pretty good. The government IMO did it right and took off pushing the development of cures and treatments and reacting to the shortages with everything from hospitals to equipment like ventilators. Trump brought that huge hospital ship into NYC that never got used and converted a convention hall into another hospital and gave the city 10X what they wanted or needed.



Sadly it was an election year and everything went political regarding the response ending in the election.



We have an ER doctor in the family and I have had a few good talks with him about what is going on. He sees people coming in having strokes, heart attacks, etc all forms of life threatening stuff and the first thing they do after stabilizing them with all the covid19 protocols is test them. many of them test positive and many of them end up dying and are counted as covid deaths. True the overall death rate is going up at the same time and he is also seeing all kinds of drug, suicide, domestic violence, street violence etc going up. Who knows what is going on if it’s related to job loss, lock down, politics, or just public unrest. It just is what it is and the information we are getting is really clouded IMO over the last 4-5 months.



I saw some early reporting that says just about every year 30k people die from the flu and related things. Every year huge numbers of people die as a result of obesity and we just take it as facts. So I really don’t know what to believe most of the time.



Like you I wear my mask even though I know most of the air I’m sucking in is coming in around the sides and the filtration even thru the mask is not fine enough. I see a lot of people with it over their mouth but not the nose. I see husband and wife and 3 kids grocery shopping as a family and think can’t 4 of them stay in the car. I got yelled at by a lady at walmart for going the wrong direction as what I wanted was 5’ up the one way street. Ca now has rules for Thanksgiving that only allow 2 hours for a multi family dinner no more than 10 people and no singing.



The swine flu a few years ago also had the warning of pandemic and was handled much poorer and fortunately wasn’t as bad as first predictions thought. So by luck we all got past that one.



If anything positive comes out of this it should show us or teach us what it would or will be like if a really nasty bug gets out. Unfortunately I don’t think we have learned much.

Just my thoughts as well. Thanks for the well wishing. :)
 

tomtheelder2020

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Krich, If a person with diabetes is admitted to the hospital with Covid and dies, it is the Covid that killed them, not the disease they have lived with for years and likely would have continued living with for years more. If there are so few true Covid deaths, why is El Paso using refrigerator trucks for extra morgue capacity and using the convention center for emergency hospital bed space? If that is being faked, why are the thousands of healtcare workers at El Paso hospitals not speaking out? In fact, why aren't the millions of Dr.s, nurses, orderlies, and other hospital staff around the country contacting their local news to expose the truth? That is one very deep conspiracy! Even more amazing is how wide the conspiracy reaches. All but the most remote nations in the world are reporting the same impact and all of those that can manage it are recommending the same approach (masks, distance, disinfection) to control the spread. I don't know who might be behind such a conspiracy but keeping 10s of millions of healthcare workers around the world from exposing it seems like a daunting task.
 

slownsteady

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250,000 people dead...........250 THOUSAND..............1/4 MILLION
some hoax.


I wish you luck Krich. I hope you don't find out the hard way.

If you look at the big picture you can see it's real. Sure, you can find a dot or line in the picture to pick on and criticize, but the picture doesn't fall apart.
 

tomtheelder2020

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Bud, Mississippi's death certificate procedures explain why the death certificate of someone who came in with a heart attack would include Covid:
COVID-19 Death Reporting: Questions and Answers for Medical Examiners, Coroners and Physicians - Mississippi State Department of Health

Krich, this article explains why the social media posts claiming only a small percentage of reported deaths are actually due to Covid are wrong - people misinterpreted data they did not understand:
CDC has not reduced the death count related to COVID-19

It is also true that different jurisdictions appear to use different procedures, and some of those have changed over time. In Washington, initial reporting did include deaths for anyone who tested positive - but the data was revised and cases where Covid was not a cause were removed as of July 1:
https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/1600/coronavirus/data-tables/ChangingCriteriaUsedtoReportDeathsReCOVID.pdf?ver=2020-06-17-151822-090
 

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I think at this point, I'm supposed to pause and say something civil. Trust me, what I want to say is so far away from civil it ain't funny. I'll just post this: I have 2 neighbors and a mother in law that died from COVID since May 2020.

I also have a late teen niece that had it, and was largely asymptomatic. She got over it after 3 weeks. The mother in law went under after the first few days, and never came off ventilator. Was dead in 15 days.

Capiche?

Why otherwise grown, adult, sane folks can't 2 and 2 together with this disease, I'll never know. But my late great aunt (who died in 2012), spoke often of her older sister that died in 1919 of the Spanish Flu, and noted that "folks ignored it till it came to town". Then she said it wiped out half the farms in our little town.

So, I do everything I can not to catch it__________so far, so good. As far as you other folks are concerned keep believing what you want to believe. Just don't guess wrong.
 

havasu

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How Many People Die of Cancer Each Year? In 2020, an estimated 606,520 people will die of cancer in the United States. Lung and bronchus cancer is responsible for the most deaths with 135,720 people expected to die from this disease.

Lets say 50% had also contracted Covid during treatment in the hospital for their cancer. Well, guess what, all these deaths will be tied to Covid, so the states can redeem the free $17,000 CARE money.

In my opinion, the majority is bunk. I know one person who died from Covid. Well actually, she had major medical problems including kidney dialysis 3 times a week, contracted Covid and died.
 

havasu

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There was a recent study that being locked down is actually harming us more than being out in the world. If your immune system is not tested daily, you lose the antibodies which are there to protect you. Hiding in your house, with limited exposure to family/friends, is causing our suicide rate to increase exponentially. People in nursing homes have spent nearly an entire year on lockdown. What life is that? Put me in that position and I will find a way to end my life, or just shut down and quit fighting.

Just my honest opinion.
 

bud16415

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I believe I could die from Covid19 and so could my friends and family. Close as I can figure my risk of dying when I got it were pretty slim and better than if I had got it even 6 months before as there are better therapeutics now than then. So maybe with my age and my health problems I fell into the 99% success range and she is younger and in better health maybe the 99.9% range. As it was we were both lucky and actually we both had mild symptoms hers was a little worse than mine. I had my regular flu quad shot a few weeks before maybe that factored in as I have heard reports both ways on that.



But life is about risk and I agree with havasu one of my personal saddest parts of this is we have two of her grandparents 90s in nursing homes and there is no provision or hardly none for seeing them and letting them know they are loved still. One place suggests we stand outside in the yard and call them and say hi thru the window over phone and we have done that and her granny kept saying come on in and see me. Her other grandmother you are allowed one person one visit a week to a special plexiglas wall room. So her grandfather or her kids get the 30 minute visits.



There are lots of ways to die and risk involved. Someone mentioned cancer and like Covid19 sometimes you have little control over if you get it. Then there is a lot of what we can die from that is controllable. Smoking, Obesity, Suicide, Drug and Alcohol, Driving fatalities, and the list goes on. These combined are huge numbers of deaths as well many times the huge number that is Covid19 even and hardly anyone talks about them. I also agree that even one death is too many and when it is a loved one it is a tragedy.



One of the great things about this country is we have always had the right to live our life freely until our rights infringe on the rights of others. We are allowed to eat fast food and drink 32 oz soft drinks or smoke. The right of drinking and smoking is ok as long as you don’t blow your smoke into my lungs or drive your car on the road with mine after drinking.



There has to be some belief that people are smart enough to take care of themselves and the government can advise and let people figure out if they want the risk. A church that holds 1000 people can’t legally open when they might get 100 people wearing masks and sitting 10’ apart but our casino can tape off every other slot machine and it is fine. Telling people they can’t have 11 people for Thanksgiving dinner that all know the risks is ridicules when 10 is ok. It is ok to drink in a bar full of people all day but at 10pm look out covid will spread. What ever happened to common sense.



When I got called for contact tracing it took over an hour with them asking dates and times and where I went and who I saw and what is their age and sex and how do I relate my gender as etc. Then I tell the woman oh and on the day I was likely shedding active covid19 I went to walmart for an hour to shop for food and had to have past in the aisle a 100 people she says oh we don’t need to know that. By the way to the question of my gender identity I answered I need more time to think on that one.

Now that we have had it my understanding is there is some period of time where we have some immunity to giving or getting it. So if you invite me for Thanksgiving dinner should you count me as now I’m part of the herd and a good thing. Do I need a mask? Can I get closer than 6’? can I give grandma a hug? I say not because there is something more to this and I still feel I have to conform to the rules. I see people here jogging totally alone going down the road with a mask on. I see people driving alone with the windows up with a mask on. There is more to this than we think. :coffee:
 

Flyover

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I've seen the term "sanitation theater", like "security theater" at the airport where they do all this rigamarole with metal detectors and taking off your shoes that in reality doesn't do much to keep people safer, because motivated terrorists will always find their way around it.

Looking around at the world I definitely see a lot of sanitation theater. To some extent the executive orders and such that have cropped up in response to Covid are sanitation theater. That would include stuff like you can have 10 people over for Thanksgiving but not 11, or letting the casinos tape off every other slot machine but not letting churches even open their doors. The most ridiculous was this summer when I saw local high school sports teams practicing: the coach would be wearing a mask while all the players panted and shouted to each other with bare faces, sometimes inches apart.

But at the same time, I understand our society's authority structures are trying to respond to a virus we don't yet know everything about, in a way that gets a desired result. So whatever they tell us to do has to be easy to understand and comply with. They can't make the rules too complicated or nuanced. We end up settling on a lot of arbitrary numbers (6 feet apart, 10 people over for Thanksgiving, 10pm curfew, etc.) that don't really stand up to logic. But that isn't the point: they're just simple things where if enough people sorta get close enough to abiding by them, then the statistical number of cases can be kept low enough to not overwhelm the hospital system.

That's how I think of it anyway. Remember what George Carlin said (paraphrasing from memory): "Picture someone with a 100 IQ. Pretty dumb, right? Well, half of people are dumber than that!"
 

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You seem to have thought about this pretty well, Flyover. I wish more people would. I agree that some of the confusion is in the fact that we are just learning how to deal with this virus. And a lot of the confusion is in the politicians trying to thread the needle between safety and letting people do stuff.

Let me add that the logic I see behind the 10:00 cufew is simply that the later it gets in a bar, the more people are drunk beyond reasonable thinking. Drunk people do stupid things.
 

bud16415

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I agree drunk people do stupid things and each year around 10,000 people die as a result of drunk driving and a much larger number are seriously injured. Not to mention the health risk of excessive drinking. The cost to society is billions of dollars and a lot of that directly or indirectly comes out of the average citizen pocket. So covid19 restrictions should also lower that number, but my guess is it wont and indications show the numbers are rising with alcohol and drug deaths.



The simple answer was once tried and that was prohibition and we know how that worked out.



There are also many non-stupid people that enjoy alcohol and use it responsibly these are likely the same people that understand to social distance and wear a mask and not to subject grandma and grandpa with underlying health issues to higher risk settings. They also have rights and anytime you restrict a stupid persons rights you also restrict a responsible persons rights.



Around here bars had to close but drinking where food was served was allowed. They started serving you a pack of crackers with your beer and that was ok for a while. Then they said no it has to be a nutritious meal so they were handing out protein bars with a total meal in them and they had a bucket by the door if you didn’t eat it you could return it for someone else.

Bottom line is the government will restrict people going to bars after a certain time because it is good for us because of covid19 and then make other recreational drugs legal because that’s a good idea also. I have found people that have jobs and are making money mostly leave the bar before 10pm because they have to get up and go to work and it seems these holidays are now the problem because they draw people together, similar to how churches do. So maybe a government that controls it all is the solution no holidays no church mandatory work. Wait we have some countries like that. I have been hearing some people like that idea also and want it here. :dunno:
 

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My cousin died last week after 6 weeks in ICU with covid. His turned into mrsa in his lungs. He could not speak because of the tubes but wrote that he wanted to die. He was in extreme pain. He was 74.

A friend who was 40 died from covid a few weeks back.
My heart doctor tells me that if I get it, I probably won't survive. My wife and my handicapped son probably won't either.
But the lockdowns are ruining the economy. We are in a no-win situation.
 

bud16415

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My cousin died last week after 6 weeks in ICU with covid. His turned into mrsa in his lungs. He could not speak because of the tubes but wrote that he wanted to die. He was in extreme pain. He was 74.

A friend who was 40 died from covid a few weeks back.
My heart doctor tells me that if I get it, I probably won't survive. My wife and my handicapped son probably won't either.
But the lockdowns are ruining the economy. We are in a no-win situation.
Sorry to hear about your cousin



We had an older woman 80s that was really well known in our little town as she was the town historian pass from covid19 this week. There have been a few cases but she was the first I heard that died in our little town.



You are right it is a two-sided problem and we know who the most vulnerable are. There are now 20M people that have had it and are now fine and they should be allowed to work and keep things moving. I’m retired and doing ok financially and there was no economic impact on me due to this but I got money along with everyone else. With this kind of an emergency I would think it would go by need and try and keep the country going while protecting those at risk. We are not too good at doing that we lock everyone down or we send everyone money. It is always a one size fits all solution.



My sister and her husband are around 75 and they assessed the risk and locked themselves inside for the year. I talked to her on Thanksgiving and said the immunization is right around the corner and she said I would never take that. She told me she expects to be locked in for at least another year and if I want to see her I can come to her sidewalk and see her thru the window. She may well be a covid19 fatality and never get it. Where she lives hardly anyone walks past her house. I told her put a mask on and go for a walk. She said absolutely not there is just too much risk in that. I told her at least change from watching the 24-7 news she is watching.

I’m going to the doctors today my normal visit where she tells me I’m doing good for the condition I’m in. I will try and get a date on when I can get a shot and get the ball rolling.
 

Rusty

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They can't know the long term effects of the vaccine, Just look at other meds that worked in trials but not in the long haul. Thalidomide, treated morning sickness and deformed thousands of babies. Zantac, treated acid reflux, and caused cancer. Celebrex (Vioxx) treated pain and caused heart attacks and many other drugs. They all tested safe in short trials but were deadly in the long term. As far as the stimulus check, many seniors who are on fixed income have suffered because of the raise in grocery prices.
 

Spicoli43

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They can't know the long term effects of the vaccine, Just look at other meds that worked in trials but not in the long haul. Thalidomide, treated morning sickness and deformed thousands of babies. Zantac, treated acid reflux, and caused cancer. Celebrex (Vioxx) treated pain and caused heart attacks and many other drugs. They all tested safe in short trials but were deadly in the long term. As far as the stimulus check, many seniors who are on fixed income have suffered because of the raise in grocery prices.
Sorry for your losses. I won't take any of the mRNA vaccines (Moderna, Pfizer). That technology has never been used and was actually called dangerous for humans. They scrubbed that from the web recently, so that reinforces my decision. I had a Heart Attack from Celebrex (Celicoxib). My knees never felt better though! I won't take any drug because of that. There is absolutely no regulation, the FDA is there but doesn't do anything. I mean, when Tums can kill you via Heart Attack, it's obvious they aren't actively regulating the industry.

I will strongly consider a plant based vaccine if one is developed. One such company I am investigating is iBio. A plant based vaccine has also never been used, but theoretically wouldn't require the additives like traditional egg and insect based vaccines such as Formaldehyde, Aluminum, Antifreeze, Human Bovine Serum, Calf Bovine Serum etc.
 

bud16415

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They can't know the long term effects of the vaccine, Just look at other meds that worked in trials but not in the long haul. Thalidomide, treated morning sickness and deformed thousands of babies. Zantac, treated acid reflux, and caused cancer. Celebrex (Vioxx) treated pain and caused heart attacks and many other drugs. They all tested safe in short trials but were deadly in the long term. As far as the stimulus check, many seniors who are on fixed income have suffered because of the raise in grocery prices.
Yes you can never be sure and you listed some good ones. Then there are the many millions of lives that are saved by the ones that do work out I won’t list them all.



Thing is this corona19 bug needs a passenger to keep it going. In theory if we all 100% went inside and had no outside contact for 15 days it would be done.



The idea is once a certain percentage of people have it the chain reaction will slow and stop on its own. Every year I get the quad flu shot and hopefully the flu that comes up will be one of them. This is a more deadly bug but it is the same idea. I read that the swine flu was much worse in terms of spread and the powers to be handled it much worse back then. We were all lucky it just wasn’t as deadly about 500,000 died world wide from H1N1. The Spanish flu got 500 million world wide and 675,000 in the US in 1918 when the population was lower.



So I know there is risk with even a “cure” but I’m willing to take a risk knowing what the results could be. I have quite a few family members that won’t get a flu shot because they say they did once and then got the flu from it. I also have family members that won’t get their kids any childhood shots for religious reasons I don’t understand.

That’s what a free country is I guess.
 

Rusty

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My daughter won't let my granddaughter have the much-pushed HPV.
some admitted side effects are:
  • Blood clots.
  • Seizures.
  • Guillain-Barré syndrome.
  • Chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy.
  • Mylgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome.
  • Death.
 

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