Tesla Achilles Heel
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They have been doing it for a long time.
http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2021/ph241/margraf1/I bet they have money in battery development too.
BvilleBound
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Elon Musk made a breakthrough with Tesla, just like SpaceX. Now Ford, GM etc are jumping on the EV bandwagon too, and sales are rising rapidly worldwide. All because gasoline prices are skyrocketing, or because every buyer is trying to fight Global Warming? Nope. EVs are significantly cheaper to build, operate and maintain - with far fewer moving parts. See this report from Consumer Reports, and the graphs of worldwide EV sales, below.
If you live in an area with lots of sun and no tree shadows on your roof, you can cut costs even further with solar power - which is the cheapest source of electricity on the planet. Even if you are not concerned about Global Warming, this is one of the best investments a homeowner can make - with much better returns than the stock market if you have 'net-metering' in your state. See the link below.
Renewable energy delivers the lowest cost for electricity, period - and these studies were done BEFORE the recent spike in gasoline prices:
- https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/EV-Ownership-Cost-Final-Report-1.pdf
If you live in an area with lots of sun and no tree shadows on your roof, you can cut costs even further with solar power - which is the cheapest source of electricity on the planet. Even if you are not concerned about Global Warming, this is one of the best investments a homeowner can make - with much better returns than the stock market if you have 'net-metering' in your state. See the link below.
Renewable energy delivers the lowest cost for electricity, period - and these studies were done BEFORE the recent spike in gasoline prices:
- www.carbonbrief.org/solar-is-now-cheapest-electricity-in-history-confirms-iea
- www.iea.org/reports/projected-costs-of-generating-electricity-202
- www.irena.org/newsroom/pressreleases/2020/Jun/Renewables-Increasingly-Beat-Even-Cheapest-Coal-Competitors-on-Cost
BvilleBound
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US, European and Chinese governments ARE funding aggressive and costly efforts to turn nuclear fusion into a real source of power. Progress has been so significant that private corporations have also stepped in and launched their own projects. See, for example:
USA: U.S. Project Reaches Major Milestone toward Practical Fusion Power
Europe and ITER: https://www.iter.org
China: China's Artificial Sun Just Broke a Record for Longest Sustained Nuclear Fusion
Private efforts:
If I was in the market for a new car today, it would very likely be an EV. At this point I don't expect to be in the new car market for a couple of years, at least until the supply chain issues are resolved. By the time I'm ready to pull the trigger there will be a lot more options from Ford, GM, Hyundai, KIA, Toyota, Honda, VW, MB, FCA, BWM, Audi, etc. If I were buying today it would likely be a Ford Mach-e, or maybe a Hyundai Ioniq 5. I like the F-150 Lightning, but I'm just not sure I want to spend that much money for a mulch hauler. I'll just keep my 1999 F-150 on the road until there is a major problem that makes it unreasonable to repair. It doesn't get driven that many miles so repairs are pretty minor. Biggest expense will probably be tires, but given the miles I drive it probably 5 years away. I'd need to replace them more for age than tread wear. I only drive it to the home center and garden center for the most part these days.
Musk has done a great service blazing the way to make EVs viable. The other manufacturers aren't going to cede the entire market to him and are coming out with some strong models. Even when traveling you don't need to spend hours waiting for your car to recharge. The software on them can map your route end to end and tell you where the chargers are along the route and how long you'd need to stop at various chargers to complete your journey. Most of the time you can get your car up to about an 80% charge in 20 minutes at a super charger or about the time it takes for a quick bathroom and coffee break. A little slower than a fill up at the gas station but not unreasonable. For 99% of your driving you'll be topping up at home after running a few errands or your commute to work. I installed a 50amp outlet in my garage for my future EV, with that I'll be fully charged in an hour or so when I get home. With two EVs we would just switch between the two as we'll never run them both down at the same time.
By 2030 most of the new cars sold in the USA and Canada will be EVs. ICE cars will still be around for many years given their usable lifespans.
Musk has done a great service blazing the way to make EVs viable. The other manufacturers aren't going to cede the entire market to him and are coming out with some strong models. Even when traveling you don't need to spend hours waiting for your car to recharge. The software on them can map your route end to end and tell you where the chargers are along the route and how long you'd need to stop at various chargers to complete your journey. Most of the time you can get your car up to about an 80% charge in 20 minutes at a super charger or about the time it takes for a quick bathroom and coffee break. A little slower than a fill up at the gas station but not unreasonable. For 99% of your driving you'll be topping up at home after running a few errands or your commute to work. I installed a 50amp outlet in my garage for my future EV, with that I'll be fully charged in an hour or so when I get home. With two EVs we would just switch between the two as we'll never run them both down at the same time.
By 2030 most of the new cars sold in the USA and Canada will be EVs. ICE cars will still be around for many years given their usable lifespans.
Eddie_T
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I have been somewhat following LPP Fusion which has no gov funding (the last time I checked). The novelty of it's approach is that each community could have a small fusion energy generator negating the need for long transmission lines. Getting adequate funding has been hard so the experimental team is small and the progress is slow. If the approach is successful we could forget the ugly wind and solar farms and their accompanying recycling problems.
Spicoli43
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The problem everybody that is into EV's ignores is very simple... What do EV's need? Forget the $80K plus cost of a Tesla or the $8K cost for a used Leaf or whatever. Forget the costs for tires and window replacement etc. When the electricity grid goes down, then what happens?
IF, and this is a big IF the politicians fully embrace Nuclear energy, which the Democrats hate, we might be completely fine. Wind farms are a MASSIVE Catastrophic failure for everybody, as exhibited in the Tucker Carlson documentary on Fox Nation. If you watch that documentary, you will change your views about Wind farms.
So, then what? Democrats hate Nuclear, hate Coal, hate Natural Gas... The only way to reliably produce electricity is with fossil fuels. The thought of "Green energy" isn't new, it's just NEW to the thinking of most people because of Dingbat politicians preaching about it like AOC when they have no bloody idea what they are talking about.
So... Tons more EV's from every manufacturer = Tons more electricity needed = Massive increase in fossil fuel usage = Goes absolutely against their entire argument.
Then, when the grid goes down, supply and demand kicks in, so the charging station 45 miles away (if you can get there) isn't charging the normal prices, Jack. It's 3 times the cost. pay it or call a tow truck.
If Hydro were the solution, Fossil Fuels wouldn't account for 80 percent of electricity production circa 2022.
Solar? I would love free energy from Solar... After 33 years of paying the system off.
IF, and this is a big IF the politicians fully embrace Nuclear energy, which the Democrats hate, we might be completely fine. Wind farms are a MASSIVE Catastrophic failure for everybody, as exhibited in the Tucker Carlson documentary on Fox Nation. If you watch that documentary, you will change your views about Wind farms.
So, then what? Democrats hate Nuclear, hate Coal, hate Natural Gas... The only way to reliably produce electricity is with fossil fuels. The thought of "Green energy" isn't new, it's just NEW to the thinking of most people because of Dingbat politicians preaching about it like AOC when they have no bloody idea what they are talking about.
So... Tons more EV's from every manufacturer = Tons more electricity needed = Massive increase in fossil fuel usage = Goes absolutely against their entire argument.
Then, when the grid goes down, supply and demand kicks in, so the charging station 45 miles away (if you can get there) isn't charging the normal prices, Jack. It's 3 times the cost. pay it or call a tow truck.
If Hydro were the solution, Fossil Fuels wouldn't account for 80 percent of electricity production circa 2022.
Solar? I would love free energy from Solar... After 33 years of paying the system off.
KBB says the average price of an EV right now is $56,437. Until a few years ago I never bought a new car always used and I know I wouldn’t be happy spending 60 grand on a tiny EV car. I took a look at the used market and they all seem to be selling for close to $15k and seem to be around 50k-80k miles on them. I gather most of the companies are saying you are covered to 100k miles. As best as I can find the replacement cost in 2025 based on today’s dollars is going to be about $6k average with about $1k in labor.
The prices do seem to vary a lot from one maker to another so it will be a selling point in advance to know that info. I don’t ever once remember anyone buying a car thinking about cost of an engine when they bought it. I did buy my pickup with the 350CI engine because I knew they were so common.
A rapid switch away from gas will likely hurt the poorest people the most with the way it is being done. Like I said above with the two of us using 20 gallons of fuel per week our annual cost is over $4000 and up $2000 in a year. We will get thru that and at some tipping point will have to go EV and the $60 for a new car won’t be fun or the $30k for something used and replacing the consumable stuff.
Then you have the guy working minimum wage at Wal-Mart and say needing 10 gallons of gas per week in his $2000 beater car. He lives where having a charging station is not that easy if he could afford to put one in and paying for a charge if there is one in his neighborhood is going to be at a premium cost. He will be the one locked out of transportation. Most of the country doesn’t have any kind of good mass transit. It will put a lot of people in a pickle.
When I was down in Mexico setting up a plant I was surprised at how small a parking lot we put in for the size of the work force. It was because almost no workers owned transportation and our plant was a long distance from the towns so we picked everyone up in old school busses and brought them to work. Maybe we need to rethink our whole idea of transportation. Or at least slow known the plan so we don’t hurt the people that are at the bottom the most.
The prices do seem to vary a lot from one maker to another so it will be a selling point in advance to know that info. I don’t ever once remember anyone buying a car thinking about cost of an engine when they bought it. I did buy my pickup with the 350CI engine because I knew they were so common.
A rapid switch away from gas will likely hurt the poorest people the most with the way it is being done. Like I said above with the two of us using 20 gallons of fuel per week our annual cost is over $4000 and up $2000 in a year. We will get thru that and at some tipping point will have to go EV and the $60 for a new car won’t be fun or the $30k for something used and replacing the consumable stuff.
Then you have the guy working minimum wage at Wal-Mart and say needing 10 gallons of gas per week in his $2000 beater car. He lives where having a charging station is not that easy if he could afford to put one in and paying for a charge if there is one in his neighborhood is going to be at a premium cost. He will be the one locked out of transportation. Most of the country doesn’t have any kind of good mass transit. It will put a lot of people in a pickle.
When I was down in Mexico setting up a plant I was surprised at how small a parking lot we put in for the size of the work force. It was because almost no workers owned transportation and our plant was a long distance from the towns so we picked everyone up in old school busses and brought them to work. Maybe we need to rethink our whole idea of transportation. Or at least slow known the plan so we don’t hurt the people that are at the bottom the most.
Eddie_T
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I wonder how tire life fairs for EVs, The Ford F-150 Lightning will weigh about 1,600 pounds more than a similar gas-powered F-150 truck. That's like always driving a loaded truck.
Forget the costs for tires and window replacement etc.
No different than an ICE. Brakes on EVs last virtually forever due to regenerative braking. Oil changes are a thing of the past with an EV. Overall EVs have lower maintenance costs. LEAF battery replacement is a problem. Nissan doesn't want to sell them at a decent price. You'd think some after market company would fill the void. The battery problem with LEAF's is a prime reason why I wouldn't consider one on the used market despite their very attractive price. Attractive only if you don't know about the cost of a replacement battery. Hyundai has a 10 year warranty on their batteries and power train for the Ioniq EVs.
When the electricity grid goes down, then what happens? For how long?
The F-150 can feed electricity back to your house during a power failure. So assuming you've kept the truck charged it can actually be your back up generator for several days per Ford. If you're in an area with long power failures you're probably a candidate for your own back up generator.. When there is a widespread power failure, gas stations can't pump gas either. If you and your neighbors all had EVs not every one is going to be pulling power from the grid all night long every night. My power company already has a program that allows them to control HVAC systems at residences that sign up. They only offer me a $25 annual credit to sign up, so it is a no sale for me. A similar thing could be done for electric chargers to spread the load out over night.
No different than an ICE. Brakes on EVs last virtually forever due to regenerative braking. Oil changes are a thing of the past with an EV. Overall EVs have lower maintenance costs. LEAF battery replacement is a problem. Nissan doesn't want to sell them at a decent price. You'd think some after market company would fill the void. The battery problem with LEAF's is a prime reason why I wouldn't consider one on the used market despite their very attractive price. Attractive only if you don't know about the cost of a replacement battery. Hyundai has a 10 year warranty on their batteries and power train for the Ioniq EVs.
When the electricity grid goes down, then what happens? For how long?
The F-150 can feed electricity back to your house during a power failure. So assuming you've kept the truck charged it can actually be your back up generator for several days per Ford. If you're in an area with long power failures you're probably a candidate for your own back up generator.. When there is a widespread power failure, gas stations can't pump gas either. If you and your neighbors all had EVs not every one is going to be pulling power from the grid all night long every night. My power company already has a program that allows them to control HVAC systems at residences that sign up. They only offer me a $25 annual credit to sign up, so it is a no sale for me. A similar thing could be done for electric chargers to spread the load out over night.
I was reading some things on line today as to what to expect from going EV. One of the things was that on average expect your electric bill to go up about $38 per month so for 2 cars my guess would be to double that. So lets call it $76.
Right now we use about 15 gallons in her Kia Sportage and 5 gallons in my Kia Soul because I’m retired and her working and the larger car we tend to take it shopping and such. Ether way about 20 gallons of fuel at $4.25 comes out to be about $368 a month in gasoline.
If this can be believed I can save $3500 per year going EV.
Are these numbers even close to correct?
Right now we use about 15 gallons in her Kia Sportage and 5 gallons in my Kia Soul because I’m retired and her working and the larger car we tend to take it shopping and such. Ether way about 20 gallons of fuel at $4.25 comes out to be about $368 a month in gasoline.
If this can be believed I can save $3500 per year going EV.
Are these numbers even close to correct?
Spicoli43
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Brakes and oil changes are as simple as pumping gas in most vehicles, just takes longer. Maintenance is the big selling point of EV's, but the sticker price makes no sense. If they were $9000, that still wouldn't be acceptable because in 9 years or so you could probably be facing a new battery that's $9000 or more... $15,000 for the Tesla that cost $85000. It's not like everything else would be refreshed, you would still be driving a 9 year old frame.
There is no figure that adds up EV versus Gas. The only possibilities would be a used EV that never quits and runs forever. It won't be Tesla because everything Elon does is a grand experiment. It might work in 20 years when all the kinks are worked out.
As far as Ford saying that you could use it for powering the house, that's all it is. They are saying you could power the house.
As far as people in areas that suffer long power outages, they fill up all their vehicles before the storm hits, so that is irrelevant.
For anybody that's interested in an EV, I suggest getting an Electric riding lawn mower like I had last year. After that couple of hours of fun and a possible return to the dealer, you might think twice on the technology.
Spicoli43
Well-Known Member
No, your numbers aren't correct.
I remember buying my hot tub and asking about electric cost and they told me about a dollar a day. I was skeptical and surprised they were pretty close to correct. It is close to double in the winter as in the summer and I do keep it hotter in the winter.
When I read the $38 a month I suspected that to be a ways off so the factor of 10 is maybe closer $380 a month.
Spicoli43
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No, you said 20 gallons of fuel at $4.25 comes out to be about $368 a month in gasoline.
20 gallons per week at 4.25 x 4.33 weeks in a month =368 a month
Spicoli43
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I drive about 72 miles a Month for shopping trips, and 15 miles once a month to the dump (Winter) and twice a month to the dump (Summer). So that's a total of 102 miles a month max. I like driving and used to drive a few hundred miles a week for the fun of it. Gone are those days, I won't go anywhere unless I have to.
President Obama shouldn't have been talking about Obamacare today, he should have used his time at the White House to talk about how they were going to lower the gas prices, because they have until the start of September or so to make a significant dent there under the guise they are doing something for the peasants.
President Obama shouldn't have been talking about Obamacare today, he should have used his time at the White House to talk about how they were going to lower the gas prices, because they have until the start of September or so to make a significant dent there under the guise they are doing something for the peasants.
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